Bendis taking legion from clark

[Superlad93]

Unnecessary fudging of the truth is pretty common for kids, anyway XD

Right, basically. Plus, it seemed like he was having a hard time imagining having that conversation with his father because his father and his legacy are the subject.

[Yoda]

What guarantee is there that Legion will sell strong enough this time over the last few times? And then what happens to Jon? That's the issue.

And yes, Jon is popping up in other media. But that has little to no bearing on comics. Look at Dick Grayson and his generation. Extremely popular in Titans and Young Justice, but are being wiped out, one way or another, in the comics. So its not like there isn't precedent.

They seem to be doing everything they can to make it have a great chance at success. They are launching out of a mini event that sets up the continuity that is a jam book of some of the hottest artists DC has working for it. They are setting up the premise based on its most popular iteration, with a fresh continuity for a jumping on point. With a character that has a solid fan base, the creative team is one of their top teams at DC at the moment, who are enthusiastic about it and want it to succeed. If you look at all that and see an attempt to kill a character or concept I don’t know what to tell you.

For all the hAnd wringing about Nightwing and Wally they both are still headlining books and are trying to generate buzz and sales. It’s not popular directions, but Dan Didio has been trying to kill Nightwing for a long time. He’s still around. Same with Wally.

[Jackalope89]

They seem to be doing everything they can to make it have a great chance at success. They are launching out of a mini event that sets up the continuity that is a jam book of some of the hottest artists DC has working for it. They are setting up the premise based on its most popular iteration, with a fresh continuity for a jumping on point. With a character that has a solid fan base, the creative team is one of their top teams at DC at the moment, who are enthusiastic about it and want it to succeed. If you look at all that and see an attempt to kill a character or concept I don’t know what to tell you.

For all the hAnd wringing about Nightwing and Wally they both are still headlining books and are trying to generate buzz and sales. It’s not popular directions, but Dan Didio has been trying to kill Nightwing for a long time. He’s still around. Same with Wally.

The Nightwing series is starring a bunch of randos dressing up as Nightwing while Dick is being shoved through as a side character named "Ric" that drives a taxi. Wally was turned into a mass killer. Donna was last seen in Titans being an alcoholic. Roy was killed. Garth is MIA. A number of the lesser known Titans were killed alongside Roy...

Dick may not technically be dead, but he's not far off at the moment.

[Ascended]

It doesn't matter, when this Bendis nightmare run is over, Geoff Johns will have to do some kind of soft reboot to fix all this anyway lol.

Yeah, because Secret Origin was *such* a great story?

I dont believe Bendis is actually capable of writing as horrible, bland, and useless a Superman as Johns. And I usually like Johns' work (just not on Clark).

For me, I'm not bothered at all by Jon joining the Legion. Hell, it's practically on every young Super's "must do" checklist! But I'm not cool at all with this coming at the expense of Clark's time with the group. I dont see how this helps or improves the Legion, Clark, or Jon. Whether it's canon or not this is still Jon just re-treading his father's journey rather than forging his own path. It doesn't add anything to Clark and just takes things away. And the Legion are largely the Legion either way and aren't going to benefit from Jon's involvement over Clark's, as functionally who served as the team's inspiration doesn't usually matter much to the story being told at the moment.

Still, for all that Bendis' argument about the future belonging to the youth does have merit and while I disagree with him I can at least see his logic. What *really* pisses me off is the idea of Jon getting credit for the UP. The Legion thing I can get past and forgive, but Jon getting the UP too? That's too gods damn much for me.

[Sacred Knight]

All the above makes it so weird that Johns is one of the few who's cool with just letting Superman's history be his history. Whether its rebooted, follows an older continuity or whatever, its still adaptations of his past. That's not to say it has to be his and only his and no one else can partake. I'm not that selfish. That's where branching out comes in which they'd done before successfully with Supergirl. But robbery is something else. No other character has his own history parceled off for others like Superman. This time its within his own lore, sure, but its still crap.

[Superlad93]

What *really* pisses me off is the idea of Jon getting credit for the UP. The Legion thing I can get past and forgive, but Jon getting the UP too? That's too gods damn much for me.

But why though? Clark's never historically created the UP in any continuity. The closest he's ever gotten has been Superman and The Legion of Super-Heroes where Dawnstar and Wildfire let Clark know that the peace treaties and such that he helps negotiate directly help to lead to the UP, but even there they never say he's the one who came up with the idea.

Is it just that Jon's getting the credit for the idea at all?

[Ascended]

Is it just that Jon's getting the credit for the idea at all?

Pretty much.

As myself and Sacred and others have said, Clark's had a lot of stuff from his mythos pulled out to service other characters. And he's getting the Legion pulled out of his story (again) for Jon. But this time, I thought we were getting something back in return, with the "earth Prez" and "founder of the UP" things, and for once I thought we might even come out a little ahead for once. I dont like losing the Legion but in trade for those other two things? Fair deal.

And yeah, it's not like the Legion has been used in Clark's stories all that much. It's not a huge, critical aspect of Clark's development or world the same way Smallville or Krypton are. But it played into his larger mythology, it illustrated how Superman is a bigger deal than your average spandex-clad hero. And we're still presumably getting the "earth Prez" thing, so it's sorta a 1-1 loss/gain, since Clark never was cited as the UP's founder in the first place.

But still, the thing that stings the most is that Bendis appeared to be really intent on building Clark and his importance back up. Bendis seemed like he wanted to make Superman a big gods damn deal again, and unlike other writers he was actually going to give Clark the stories to support that lofty position rather than empty lip service. And for the most part Bendis is doing that, but I really don't care for how he's stolen the future from Clark for Jon's sake.

[WonderScott]

I'm okay with it. It allows us to have Superman stories in the here and now, without continuity cops losing their minds, and a Super connection to the then and there, with a Superboy whose age aligns with the other characters in the LOSH.

The then and there will be his future here and now and he'll be unencumbered by all the tropes Clark would be burdened by to operate in the future, since he's a new character without a ton of baggage. He can experience the Legion's universe and culture firsthand alongside us... Do things Clark wouldn't, based on what we know and expect of Superman. Fall in and out of love without us knowing Lois Lane has to be the default eventually. Stuff like that. Essentially we get to have surprises with Jon and that makes me interested in the possibilities and not having to replay Legion lore as has been done before. Give me stories that lean into the Legion concept, but are not dependent on the Legion concept or past runs.

I also kinda like that Jon will have limited knowledge and expertise of the 21st Century, but of none of all the other eras the mysterious guide to the Legion will show us in Millennium. He's going to have to rely on what he's told by the Legion and any gaps that are lost to everyone excluding the experience of the Millennium guide.

I never read Super Sons or much of the Jon saga in Superman, so I'm not really beholden to him in another context than being excited for him to be one of our guides to the new Legion mythology. (But I get those who have an affection for him and feel the loss of him being a kid. Similarly, I like Damian, but I've been annoyed that he's completely replaced Cassandra Cain as Bruce's "kid." So I get it in a way.)

The Legion concept > the Jon Kent concept to me, so I'm glad to see him being used in a way that not only makes him have a potentially fascinating future, but also supports a concept that's bigger, bolder, and more expansive than he is alone. We're making new Super lore here, alongside Legion lore, and that's kind of exciting.

That said, I have to see what they do with him and all of this, but I'm hopeful it'll be interesting and enjoyable.

[Superlad93]

But it played into his larger mythology, it illustrated how Superman is a bigger deal than your average spandex-clad hero.

But functionally speaking, that's such an ill defined thing that, as I've learned over the course of all this, quite a few Superman fans and virtually every casual fan either doesn't know or doesn't care about Clark's past link to the Legion. It sucks, but that's what lip service and weightless flowery words alone outside of like two writers gets us.

I'd still say the ever growing possibility of being allowed to be the president of Earth makes him a bigger deal than your average spandex wearer. And if it comes to pass, it also still sounds like it's making a pretty big deal out of him, no?

[Ascended]

I'd still say the ever growing possibility of being allowed to be the president of Earth makes him a bigger deal than your average spandex wearer. And if it comes to pass, it also still sounds like it's making a pretty big deal out of him, no?

Gods yes. You know I'm crazy excited about the possibilities here and welcome our new President with open arms! I am just as hyped for this as you are.

If this is done well, or even halfway well, we'll get way more mileage out of President of Earth Superman than we've probably ever gotten out of the Legion being in his backstory (not counting the old Superboy adventures, obviously), and credit for the UP is going to be a lot like inspiring the Legion; it'll look good on a resume but it won't really have any bearing on anything. So if Prez Supes is handled decently we'll be, technically, gaining solid ground. But did we have to lose the future for this?

Thats all my complaint is. Clark has lost stuff from his mythos for years. I'm thrilled he's gaining something for once, and this whole thing is pretty gods damn brilliant, but did he have to lose things again to make this gain? Is there a reason Clark couldn't just get a unapologetic, clean gain for once without having to sacrifice another aspect of the mythos for it?

It's just my grumpy old bastard bias. Just me being tired of seeing DC sh*t on this character. And no, Bendis sure as hell isn't sh*tting on Superman. He's done more in the last year to add things to the Super-verse than most writers ever even dream of and he handles the character better than anyone in the modern industry not named Morrison. But gods damn it I'm tired of losing stuff! Even if it is a relatively minor, rarely mentioned thing like the Legion. And Jon getting credit for the UP.....that's just a little salt in the wound.

There's nothing technically "wrong" with what Bendis is doing here, and if DC hadn't spent thirty years ripping Clark's mythos apart I'd be doing cartwheels at the stuff Bendis is doing. But DC has spent thirty years ripping things to hell, and I'm just tired of seeing it happen again, even if Bendis is, otherwise, doing a fucking fantastic job.

[Sam]

Something semi-related occurred to me. In comics, all things are essentially temporary. Yet the notion of United Planets is supposed to last a thousand years or whatever. Founding the United Planets is essentially the happy ending. However, the story doesn't end here. One day, Bendis will leave the title or one day DC editorial will decide to change the status quo and whatever unity is created in this run will end. As soon as they want Rann and Thanagar to go to war again, that will happen. Bendis can't define the future as much as he wants, but the more concrete the picture, the more assuredly it will be contradicted. This United Planets can't last forever. It's basically the next New Krypton. A reset is inevitable. A status quo change so great, it can't possibly last. Essentially, it's not the United Nations, it's the League of Nations. The question is, is that Bendis's intention or has he written the mythos into a corner?

[Superlad93]

But did we have to lose the future for this?

Not technically, no, but if it helps out a character so close to Superman, sets up this super youthful team with a point of inspiration that's just as youthful, and speaks to the idea of the voices of young people mattering especially when it comes to issues with their future, then dude I gotta give that a hard yes. I bleed red, yellow, and blue, you know this, but I think this sentiment, as its been presented so far, is more important than what amounts to a trophy and a pat on the back for Clark.

There's nothing technically "wrong" with what Bendis is doing here, and if DC hadn't spent thirty years ripping Clark's mythos apart I'd be doing cartwheels at the stuff Bendis is doing. But DC has spent thirty years ripping things to hell, and I'm just tired of seeing it happen again, even if Bendis is, otherwise, doing a fucking fantastic job.

I sympathize with this. I sympathize hard. I know about all of the stuff taken from him in an academic sort of way. I didn't live it, so I freely admit that it has way less pull on me as an issue. And maybe it's just my general disposition or my younger age or whatever, but when I was reading the spoilers or the issue itself, it didn't weigh as heavy on me. Now don't get it twisted, I'm one of those Superman fans that has to have him rocking some serious power relative to the universe around him, I need him to be more than just another cape on a few levels, and stuff like that, but I'm not feeling the issue here with this.

[Superlad93]

Something semi-related occurred to me. In comics, all things are essentially temporary. Yet the notion of United Planets is supposed to last a thousand years or whatever. Founding the United Planets is essentially the happy ending. However, the story doesn't end here. One day, Bendis will leave the title or one day DC editorial will decide to change the status quo and whatever unity is created in this run will end. As soon as they want Rann and Thanagar to go to war again, that will happen. Bendis can't define the future as much as he wants, but the more concrete the picture, the more assuredly it will be contradicted. This United Planets can't last forever. It's basically the next New Krypton. A reset is inevitable. A status quo change so great, it can't possibly last. Essentially, it's not the United Nations, it's the League of Nations. The question is, is that Bendis's intention or has he written the mythos into a corner?

That's not actually true. That's like saying Superman putting on the cape or the Justice League forming is the "happy ending." In fact, Legion Millennium is set to tackle that very notion. This is the start of the United Planets, but we know stuff like world ending and being run by animals is coming in however long. Hell, we even know that the Earth will blow up before the Legion's time as indicated by Legion issue #1's cover. The United Planets don't even stop something like Rann and Thanagar going to war however long down the line with another writer because the actual United Nations can't even do that in real life and they don't have a whole galaxy to keep track of.

Hell, it could even be disbanded down the line, but what will have mattered is that the idea was founded and put into everyone's heads as an alternative to madness. And we know that eventually they'll get it together, and the Legion's time will be at had.

Making it a fragile work in progress that needs to be actively worked at allows you to keep the tension and the promise of the goal at the same time.

[Adekis]

@Thread: I don't really like Jon that much in the first place, and I think Kal's relationship with the Legion has been horribly underused since 1986, so like... no, I'm not delighted. I'm not pissed about it, because this isn't new to me. Like I said, Kal's been underconnected to the Legion since the mid 80s by and large, barring the late pre-Flashpoint era that I didn't love that much in general...

On the other hand, I like this probably about as much as I like the period when the Reboot Legion had Kon on the Team, or when the Threeboot Legion had Kara, which is to say I think it's better to have some connection to the Super-Family than none. I just, you know, wish it was Kal and Kara rather than Jon, a character I already don't love.

[Sam]

That's not actually true. That's like saying Superman putting on the cape or the Justice League forming is the "happy ending." In fact, Legion Millennium is set to tackle that very notion. This is the start of the United Planets, but we know stuff like world ending and being run by animals is coming in however long. Hell, we even know that the Earth will blow up before the Legion's time as indicated by Legion issue #1's cover. The United Planets don't even stop something like Rann and Thanagar going to war however long down the line with another writer because the actual United Nations can't even do that in real life and they don't have a whole galaxy to keep track of.

Hell, it could even be disbanded down the line, but what will have mattered is that the idea was founded and put into everyone's heads as an alternative to madness. And we know that eventually they'll get it together, and the Legion's time will be at had.

Making it a fragile work in progress that needs to be actively worked at allows you to keep the tension and the promise of the goal at the same time.

Actually, no. Millennium reinforces my point. Even if Millennium shows the founding to be a struggle, it will essentially determine what that struggle is. Seeing future Supergirl cements what her future is, which you know writers aren't going to hold to forever. Even if you have United Planets as a fragile work in progress, you are married to that status quo, until someone comes along and dismantles it. And it will get dismantled or forgotten. Hell, writers can't settle on a set past, so there is no chance for an set future. How many futures have we already seen created and contradicted? Future's End had the exact same problem. Bendis is creating a status quo that, by its very nature, is doomed. Of course, all status quos in comics don't last, but since this one has future implications, the fleeting nature of this status quo is all the more stark.