How important is Spidey's corner is to the MU's worldbuilding overall?

[Hybrid]

I agree that Spidey has always been able to sustain his own setting and some of his best stories are on his own. What I disagree with in regards to what some are saying is that they think he should only have that setting. I mean, why purposefully limit yourself? It can go a long way to have outside elements going in, and vice-versa. It was very real issue for The Amazing Spider-Man writers trying to make a cinematic universe when they only had Spider-Man properties to work with.

I mean, even Spider-Man PS4 stuck primarily to the Spider-Man corner of the MU, yet it was very clearly set in a world where other superheroes existed. There was Avengers Tower, Alias Investigations, a Wakanda embassy, Nelson & Murdock, the Sanctum Sanctorum, the Raft (confirming the existence of S.H.I.E.L.D.), Roxxon, Damage Control, a statue of Lockjaw, and of course Taskmaster makes a welcome appearance where he mentions going toe-to-toe with the Avengers in the past. The only elements absent were Fantastic Four and X-Men, due to executive meddling at the time, but that eventually got worked out and we have FF suits and I expect X-Men stuff to appear in the sequel.

The bottom line is that Spider-Man PS4 was great with its own mythos, but the fact that it was connected to a larger world just made it all the sweeter as it made the world feel like its own, and it opens up more possibilities for later installments to expand upon. It was cool that Spidey wasn't the only hero of his setting, even if a lot of it is window-dressing at the moment. I do believe the sequels will further connect Spidey to the larger world, and it's great to have the option to begin with (assuming Sony's MCU divorce doesn't hamper things of course).

I guess I'm trying to say that Spidey and his mythos is fascinating on his own, but adding outside elements in, or bringing Spidey elements elsewhere, just makes it better. I definitely get you saying Spidey isn't as reliant on the shared universe, though.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I agree that Spidey has always been able to sustain his own setting and some of his best stories are on his own. What I disagree with in regards to what some are saying is that they think he should only have that setting. I mean, why purposefully limit yourself?

There's virtues in going deep as opposed to going wide. I'd prefer an in-depth look at Spider-Man and the characters than a wide scattershot view of Spider-Man high-fiving every new character or being a mascot people rub for good luck, the latter being how the MCU has treated him.

It can go a long way to have outside elements going in, and vice-versa. It was very real issue for The Amazing Spider-Man writers trying to make a cinematic universe when they only had Spider-Man properties to work with.

I am sure that it speaks to the limitations of the Spider-Man writers at the time rather than the material in and of itself. The problem with the ASM movies is that they wanted to do the shared universe set up while making half-baked half-assed movies. If they had done things right, I think Sony could have had a Spider-Man spinoff franchise. Look at Venom, and how successful he is. IF anything making a Spider-Man spinoff can work better now than before and in some respects Sony were a little ahead of themselves. People thought that a Sinister Six movie was a bad idea but then you had Nick Spencer's Superior Foes of Spider-Man and that's a concept and story that can totally work as a movie. If you want to do a Dr. Octopus solo movie there's now a wealth of material you can work with to do that.

And anyway, as ITSV proved, Sony has a solid foundation on which to build an entire lore and spinoffs and so on. You can do Spider-Man Noir, Spider-Ham, Miles, and others.

The material is there to do a Spider-Man shared universe tied to itself.

[Frontier]

I am sure that it speaks to the limitations of the Spider-Man writers at the time rather than the material in and of itself. The problem with the ASM movies is that they wanted to do the shared universe set up while making half-baked half-assed movies. If they had done things right, I think Sony could have had a Spider-Man spinoff franchise. Look at Venom, and how successful he is. IF anything making a Spider-Man spinoff can work better now than before and in some respects Sony were a little ahead of themselves. People thought that a Sinister Six movie was a bad idea but then you had Nick Spencer's Superior Foes of Spider-Man and that's a concept and story that can totally work as a movie. If you want to do a Dr. Octopus solo movie there's now a wealth of material you can work with to do that.

And anyway, as ITSV proved, Sony has a solid foundation on which to build an entire lore and spinoffs and so on. You can do Spider-Man Noir, Spider-Ham, Miles, and others.

The material is there to do a Spider-Man shared universe tied to itself.

Although I don't think Sony should get ahead of themselves...

[Hybrid]

I wouldn't be so quick to trust Sony to make good Spider-Man movies independently of the MCU just because of Spider-Verse. It took fifteen real-world years to get a good Spider-Man movie made entirely by Sony after Spider-Man 2, and that was animated and thus handled by different people. I do not trust Sony to make good live-action Spider-Man movies by themselves unless I'm given a reason to. I also believe it'll only be a matter of time before Sony and Disney reach a new agreement, given that Sony needs the MCU far more than the other way around.

But anyways, it goes back to what I was saying earlier. The fact is, talented or no, being blocked off from the wider universe makes it really hard to actually make a universe with the comparatively little they do have. For examples, the FoX-Men suffered from being walled off, and the X-Men brand is said to be so expansive it could theoretically house its own universe. The Marvel Netflix shows, despite ostensibly being part of the MCU, had to write their stories without any of those elements and they suffered for it. Hell, even the MCU itself, for as awesome as it is, had very clear-cut restrictions that really make me, well, marvel that it turned out so well.

I always looked at it differently than others I suppose. To me, the Avengers, Spider-Man, the X-Men, Fantastic Four and beyond are all equally part of the Marvel brand, and thus I'm in support of a fully-unified 'verse where all are connected. It also doesn't feel right to have a cinematic universe where all Marvel properties can be in it except Spider-Man.

That said, I do share issue with MCU Spidey being a little too reliant on the shared universe. However, I feel like Sony's restrictions are at least partly to blame. Sony ultimately had the final word on what could be in, and what couldn't, and just the whole ordeal greatly limited the possibilities they had. They couldn't actually make any major worldbuilding elements that hinged heavily on Spidey, since Sony could easily revoke it at any moment (which they did), and they couldn't bring in too many Spidey-related characters in, because that would mean losing more in this case.

In a world where Marvel actually had the film rights to Spidey, they could let it flow much more naturally, bring in more elements of Spidey lore, and maybe even make spin-offs for characters like Miles Morales, Black Cat and so on for Disney+, and just make the Spidey part of the MCU feel more like it's own entity. Alas, that is not our world. Marvel Studios did the best they could with the hand they were dealt.

It does make me think about the other sub-settings in the MCU. Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Captain Marvel and so on, are all allowed to rely primarily on their main mythos. The shared universe elements were smaller, and used to better the experience rather than intrude. But you know what they all had in common? Marvel owned their film rights and had no restrictions to deal with. If Marvel had full Spider-Man film rights, then we could've had a similar deal (I think Spider-Man PS4 kinda paints something of a picture of what MCU Spider-Man could've been like in this situation).

Just something to think about.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wouldn't be so quick to trust Sony to make good Spider-Man movies independently of the MCU just because of Spider-Verse. It took fifteen real-world years to get a good Spider-Man movie made entirely by Sony after Spider-Man 2, and that was animated and thus handled by different people.

Sony is not a person, it's a group, it's a corporation and a team. They aren't a hive mind but nor are they single individuals. ITSV was made by them, it's a Sony film. That movie was signed off by Sony Corporation in Japan (i.e. the consumer electronics branch of the company) at every step. Including new technology developed specifically for that film. Nobody other than Sony could have made that film in other words.

The fact is, talented or no, being blocked off from the wider universe makes it really hard to actually make a universe with the comparatively little they do have.

That they didn't do it well isn't indicative that it can't be done. The problems with the Amazing Movies for instance is that tonally it's way off, it's an overwritten mess. The main problem I think with the Sony movies and also the Fox movies is that the people in charge of that stuff weren't entirely familiar with the comics and the depth of the material they had. In the case of the MCU, Feige knows the stuff, as do his many producers and others. So that meant they had insight that Guardians could work, or Thanos could work, whereas the likes of Fox and Sony probably didn't know the minutiae well. The way Fox handled Fantastic Four is downright criminal. If they had someone smart, they could have created a Shared Universe around the Fantastic Four itself and crossover that with the X-Men and Daredevil brands they had rights to. That's not because of the weakness of the material, it's the weakness of the effort and lack of imagination and initiative.

The concept of doing shared universes and spinoffs ultimately comes down to execution. You can do a spinoff of virtually anything so long as the product is good. Take a look at DC/WB, WB had the rights to the complete DC Universe lock/stock/barrel for some fifty years or so. In all that time, they never did well in tapping into the density of their stuff, with select exceptions (like the Bruce Timm DCAU cartoons and Young Justice now). That's because the live-action producers didn't have the imagination rather than the weakness of the material.

For examples, the FoX-Men suffered from being walled off, and the X-Men brand is said to be so expansive it could theoretically house its own universe.

"suffered" is a loaded word. The Fox X-Men movies were successful. Not super-successful but pretty successful and some of these X-Men movies are excellent - X2, X-Men Days of Future Past, Deadpool 2. Three are great -- Logan, X-Men: First Class, Deadpool 1. Deadpool 1 is an example of writers and teams using the X-Men property and universe better than the main X-Men films. And Logan is a better superhero film than possibly anything in the MCU, to the point that the latter are taking notes from it, with Logan being an inspiration for Tony's death in Endgame, and also cited as an inspiration for the upcoming Black Widow movie, as Feige has mentioned and so on.

The Marvel Netflix shows, despite ostensibly being part of the MCU, had to write their stories without any of those elements and they suffered for it.

The Netflix shows (Daredevil, The Punisher, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage) are critically acclaimed and successful as works of TV. And to me at least, the shows work well precisely as self-contained works. In the case of Daredevil, most of his best stuff works with him alone in Hell's Kitchen. There are exceptions, like an adaptation of Born Again without the Avengers appearing and Cap going "I'm loyal to nothing, general...except the dream", would be a letdown. But not too many. And you know...I am in a minority for this...but I actually did like the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie, especially the director's cut.

[AlexCampy89]

The Marvel Shared Universe has its charms when you have a character like Doom. Doctor Doom is the most versatile character there is. Doom can work against any hero, any genre, any setting. He can get in anyone and everyone's face from no-powered nuts like the Punisher all the way to the Mighty Thor. From Luke Cage to Doctor Strange. Doom works brilliantly in Spider-Man's corner the few times he has crossed over.

The few times Doom and Spider-Man met, they never *really* fight. Doom threw the classic beam which Spider-Man avoided or a couple of traps that stalled Spidey while Doom ran away not because of fear but because he had more interesting things to do rather than wasting time with one he considers a z-list hero.
Heck, when Doom kidnapped Flash dressed as Spidey he did it to impress the FF.
That's because in a brutal fight in which Doom could use magic, technology, martial arts and mysticism, Spider-Man doesn't stand a chance.
Power levels are a major problem here. On paper Spider-Man should be stronger than every non-cosmic hero and would give a run for their money even to guys like Silver Surfer, Thor, Hercules, Juggernaut, Hulk, Red Hulk, Captain Marvel (Carol Denvers), Vision, The Thing, etc.

Now, in reality, Spider-Man is considered the weakest (or one of the weakest) of the lot. He never defeated Captain America. He never defeated properly Wolverine. He has a hard time besting even guys like Daredevil and Punisher whom he should open them like suitcases.
He defeated Luke Cage once and after that Bendis always concerned that story was forgotten and made Cage look tougher and stronger than Spidey whenever he had the chance.


So why bother bringing Spider-Man with you, a weak, annoying guy that is more a hindrance and a concern rather than a resource or a useful hand?

The only writer that somehow tried to make Spider-Man look on par with other heroes was Dan Slott. Slott really tried to make Spider-Man though and smart.

He made Spider-Man defuse a bomb that BOTH Tony Stark and Reed Richards couldn't handle. He made Spider-Man lift and let landing an airplane full of people.
Slott's sinister six defeated the Avengers.
But how well received was Slott's run?

In people's mind Spider-Man is a little guy from Queens that should stick with bank robberies. That's the reason why the MCU version of the character has been so successfully received by the general audience.

But most Marvel characters don't have that versatility, among both heroes and villains.

It's irrelevant the moment majority of the writers willingly ignore that versatility to make Spider-Man look like a idiot whenever he interacts with other heroes outside of his series.

--Iron Man for instance would not be interesting if you put him against street criminals and gangsters. Dude with the arsenal and ordinance of an entire aircraft carrier versus street punks, not so interesting. Iron Man also doesn't work well when you have him deal with X-Men related stuff since aside from throwing money, there's not much Iron Man can do, aside from getting wasted by Magneto with a single sway of his hand.

Funny thing is that Iron man defeated Magneto effortlessly in AvX. Just due plot-armor. While Spider-Man couldn't defeat an inexperienced Colossus wielding the Juggernaut powers. Spider-Man never had plot armor...
Tony Stark with all the money he has could build several Xavier institutes all around the world to help the mutants. He simply does not care and after Civil War and AvX he sees them as menaces. Actually whoever has superpowers is a threat to him.

--Captain America works well in street settings, political settings, and cosmic settings. But put him in an X-Men story where you have the loyalty to nothing but the dream confront the fact that he doesn't seem to do much for mutants. I am not sure if that's an issue with him or the X-Men since the X-Men's entire issue of mutant persecution and being on the margins rests awkwardly within the Marvel Universe for reasons many people have pointed out.

Cap is pretty much socially awkward, he doesn't know shit about mutants if not things he learnt from SHIELD reports or what Wolverine told him. He doesn't get along with Wolverine either. In other words, Cap doesn't care.

Spider-Man's a fairly versatile character in a lot of respects I'll say. Spider-Man's run has worked well when squared off with the street criminals, with super-criminals, and even cosmic and supernatural stuff. Spider-Man becoming Captain Universe is a classic story, as is JMS' Spider-Totem saga.

And yet the general audience ignores or straight out doesn't know shit about those stories and, according to majority, Spider-Man is a little guy that should do little things. How is that?

If you look at Spider-Man's publication history. His major shared universe events and stories is stuff like "Nothing can stop the Juggernaut!", "Spider-Man Versus Firelord", the "Captain Universe Saga", "Doomed Affairs", "The Death of Jean deWolff", Slott's 'Spider-Man/Human Torch". I'd also add that wonderful and charming two-parter with Loki that Fiona Avery co-worked with JMS, where Spider-Man and Loki prove to have better chemistry than Spider-Man and Thor ever did. From Ultimate Spider-Man, you have the romance with Ultimate Kitty Pryde.

Those stories were irrelevant in the long run as for the most part were retconned or simply forgotten. Ask anyone who would win in a fight between Iron man Spider-Man and everyone would answer Iron man despite Spider-Man defeating him without a problem in "Who Am I?".

But aside from that, there's not much. The majority of Spider-Man's stuff works best with him as a solo hero.

For the sole reason that he is so popular that he is better used as a springboard for other, less popular characters. But with enough effort and the right writers he could work both ways.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The few times Doom and Spider-Man met, they never *really* fight.

They had a pretty vicious fight in Michelinie-Larsen's ASM #348-350 (Larsen's final issues on the title before Bagley arrived). It was actually pretty bloody. But even then Doom does work as an effective foil in Spider-Man's corner. Especially the case in Doomed Affairs where Spider-Man has to save Doom's life from Latverian terrorists.

Now, in reality, Spider-Man is considered the weakest (or one of the weakest) of the lot. He never defeated Captain America. He never defeated properly Wolverine.

Spider-Man kicked Wolverine's ass several ways to Sunday in JMS' New Avengers tie-ins (which, speaking as a long-time detractor of Owsley, I enjoyed the hell out of). And he made Cap bleed in the Civil War tie-ins that JMS wrote. Spider-Man also out-thought Iron Man by over-riding the Iron Spider suit and then beating up Tony.

So why bother bringing Spider-Man with you, a weak, annoying guy that is more a hindrance and a concern rather than a resource or a useful hand?

Slott was uneven and varied. Sometimes he'd show Spider-Man capable, other times he'd show him as an idiot. JMS on the other hand consistently showed Spider-Man as a powerful figure.

In people's mind Spider-Man is a little guy from Queens that should stick with bank robberies. That's the reason why the MCU version of the character has been so successfully received by the general audience.

It's the job of writers/creators to sell that the "little guy who sticks with bank robberies" is doing something as important as punching Thanos. In real-life, we don't think cops and paramedics are less heroic than say Seal Team Six. It's a different relative scale, right? It's only in comics, and specifically Marvel comics and movies, that this weird caste system shows up, where we think street crime isn't a big deal. The MCU movies have this weird class snobbery which seeps in Homecoming and FFH, where they actually seem to think street crime is for the wimps. So Homecoming especially feels condescending, because Spider-Man never gets to call out Tony for his mocking Vulture as "Below my pay grade".

Batman is still considered the biggest superhero in comics even if most of his stories is street crime and he's confined to Gotham City. In DC comics, nobody looks down on characters as small and insignificant based on the threat level.

[SuperiorIronman]

They had a pretty vicious fight in Michelinie-Larsen's ASM #348-350 (Larsen's final issues on the title before Bagley arrived). It was actually pretty bloody. But even then Doom does work as an effective foil in Spider-Man's corner. Especially the case in Doomed Affairs where Spider-Man has to save Doom's life from Latverian terrorists.



Spider-Man kicked Wolverine's ass several ways to Sunday in JMS' New Avengers tie-ins (which, speaking as a long-time detractor of Owsley, I enjoyed the hell out of). And he made Cap bleed in the Civil War tie-ins that JMS wrote. Spider-Man also out-thought Iron Man by over-riding the Iron Spider suit and then beating up Tony.



Slott was uneven and varied. Sometimes he'd show Spider-Man capable, other times he'd show him as an idiot. JMS on the other hand consistently showed Spider-Man as a powerful figure.



It's the job of writers/creators to sell that the "little guy who sticks with bank robberies" is doing something as important as punching Thanos. In real-life, we don't think cops and paramedics are less heroic than say Seal Team Six. It's a different relative scale, right? It's only in comics, and specifically Marvel comics and movies, that this weird caste system shows up, where we think street crime isn't a big deal. The MCU movies have this weird class snobbery which seeps in Homecoming and FFH, where they actually seem to think street crime is for the wimps. So Homecoming especially feels condescending, because Spider-Man never gets to call out Tony for his mocking Vulture as "Below my pay grade".

Batman is still considered the biggest superhero in comics even if most of his stories is street crime and he's confined to Gotham City. In DC comics, nobody looks down on characters as small and insignificant based on the threat level.

As to that last point, I'm pretty sure that's happened to the various incarnations of the Teen/Titans.

[WebSlingWonder]

It's the job of writers/creators to sell that the "little guy who sticks with bank robberies" is doing something as important as punching Thanos. In real-life, we don't think cops and paramedics are less heroic than say Seal Team Six. It's a different relative scale, right? It's only in comics, and specifically Marvel comics and movies, that this weird caste system shows up, where we think street crime isn't a big deal. The MCU movies have this weird class snobbery which seeps in Homecoming and FFH, where they actually seem to think street crime is for the wimps. So Homecoming especially feels condescending, because Spider-Man never gets to call out Tony for his mocking Vulture as "Below my pay grade".

Batman is still considered the biggest superhero in comics even if most of his stories is street crime and he's confined to Gotham City. In DC comics, nobody looks down on characters as small and insignificant based on the threat level.

SuperiorIronman is right: there's been a few times where that's happened in DC: teams like the Justice League don't handle foes like the Fearsome Five or Dr. Light (not usually).

But I do agree with the point that the whole "superhero caste system" is kinda bogus. The Avengers, in most things besides the movies, still take on street crime, not just aliens and gods and monsters. Heck, in Avengers: EMH, the Avengers would often stop a random supervillain robbing a bank - whether it was Mandrill, the Wrecking Crew, Whirlwind, or whoever. I don't know why the movies cemented this idea that the street crime is "too small" for the big time heroes.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But I do agree with the point that the whole "superhero caste system" is kinda bogus. The Avengers, in most things besides the movies, still take on street crime, not just aliens and gods and monsters. Heck, in Avengers: EMH, the Avengers would often stop a random supervillain robbing a bank - whether it was Mandrill, the Wrecking Crew, Whirlwind, or whoever. I don't know why the movies cemented this idea that the street crime is "too small" for the big time heroes.

I think that's something they borrowed from Ultimate Marvel.

[WebSlingWonder]

I think that's something they borrowed from Ultimate Marvel.

Yeah, but weren't the Ultimates the biggest jerks in that universe?

[Hybrid]

That's what I was thinking too. The Avengers take elements from the Ultimates in being formed by S.H.I.E.L.D., but lean more heavily to their 616 characterizations (with some liberties here and there). They don't come off as PR-hungry A-holes in it for the glory.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I think we as fans consider Spider-Man so essential to the larger Marvel Universe because, well, he's pretty much the most popular Marvel character/franchise. So, from that perspective, Spidey is much more critical than characters like Iron Man, the Hulk, Captain America, or even the Fantastic Four. The only other Marvel characters who I think have ever reached Spider-Man levels of popularity were the X-Men.

If anything, though, that popularity is part of the reason why Spider-Man (and the X-Men) feel complete without the rest of the Marvel Universe: the characters and mythos are so iconic in their own right that they don't need to include other heroes or franchises. For characters like Iron Man or Thor, however, the Avengers are literally a crucial part of their overall stories. In other words, Iron Man doesn't really have a mythos without the Avengers, but Spider-Man does.

In-universe, though, I wouldn't say that Spider-Man is seen as the most important hero. The average citizen of the Marvel Universe probably thinks more highly of Captain America, Iron Man, or Thor than they do of Spider-Man.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That's what I was thinking too. The Avengers take elements from the Ultimates in being formed by S.H.I.E.L.D., but lean more heavily to their 616 characterizations (with some liberties here and there). They don't come off as PR-hungry A-holes in it for the glory.

The overall attitude of looking down on street crime that you see in the MCU Spider-Man stories is an Ultimate Marvel thing.

If anything, though, that popularity is part of the reason why Spider-Man (and the X-Men) feel complete without the rest of the Marvel Universe: the characters and mythos are so iconic in their own right that they don't need to include other heroes or franchises. For characters like Iron Man or Thor, however, the Avengers are literally a crucial part of their overall stories. In other words, Iron Man doesn't really have a mythos without the Avengers, but Spider-Man does.

Agreed. To quote Ed Piskor, "I don't wanna live in a world where the Avengers are the biggest thing and not the X-Men. Why join the navy when you can be a pirate?"

I prefer it when Spider-Man decides he's too good for the Avengers like when he told Iron Man to get bent in Avenges #4, or when he went "girl bye" on the Avengers in ASM Annual #3 when he found their initiation test lame and emotionally cruel (tracking down the Hulk who wants to be left alone). Or even in Ultimate Spider-Man where he insults Fury and the Ultimates a lot of times.

The MCU is a pretty unfaithful take on both Ultimate Peter and the time when Spider-Man lived in Avengers Tower and worked with Tony on stuff. They missed the part where Spider-Man finally and repeatedly rejects them on moral grounds.

In-universe, though, I wouldn't say that Spider-Man is seen as the most important hero. The average citizen of the Marvel Universe probably thinks more highly of Captain America, Iron Man, or Thor than they do of Spider-Man.

Timothy Harrison thought he was the best hero of all. That's the only opinion that matters to Spider-Man.

[AlexCampy89]

They had a pretty vicious fight in Michelinie-Larsen's ASM #348-350 (Larsen's final issues on the title before Bagley arrived). It was actually pretty bloody. But even then Doom does work as an effective foil in Spider-Man's corner. Especially the case in Doomed Affairs where Spider-Man has to save Doom's life from Latverian terrorists.

I remember that story and it kinda proves my point. Doom used a fraction of his powers and still beat Spider-Man into a Pulp. Spidey had to TALK OUT of the situation to save his life and the one of Black Fox.
Throughout the whole battle Doom hasn't used any magic, martial or tech skill against Spider-Man because he saw him "unworhy" of time and attention. Only once he used the molecular expander and it was against Black Fox.
Yeah, Doomed Affairs was a great story, but had Captain America in it. Another example of "weaker hero looking stronger due to plot armor".

Spider-Man kicked Wolverine's ass several ways to Sunday in JMS' New Avengers tie-ins (which, speaking as a long-time detractor of Owsley, I enjoyed the hell out of). And he made Cap bleed in the Civil War tie-ins that JMS wrote. Spider-Man also out-thought Iron Man by over-riding the Iron Spider suit and then beating up Tony.

Spidey has superstrenght and spider-sense, plus scientific genius and experience in hand to hand combat. On paper, he should be way higher than a single stalemate or moral victory against heroes that are CONSTANTLY regarded as stronger. Spidey made Cap bleed out of desperation and by using a specific set of powers he never had before (spider-legs on his back). The rest of the fight was Captain America kicking Spidey's butt with the power of the American flag and plot armor. During that fight with Iron man Spidey bought himself some time, then he ran in the sewers where Iron man couldn't follow him. In other words "a strategic withdrawal, not victory".

Slott was uneven and varied. Sometimes he'd show Spider-Man capable, other times he'd show him as an idiot. JMS on the other hand consistently showed Spider-Man as a powerful figure.

And yet Slott has been the only writer who tried to depict Spider-Man as a credible Avenger. JMS run was great for the most part, but Spidey was an on-off b-list Avenger back then.

It's the job of writers/creators to sell that the "little guy who sticks with bank robberies" is doing something as important as punching Thanos. In real-life, we don't think cops and paramedics are less heroic than say Seal Team Six. It's a different relative scale, right? It's only in comics, and specifically Marvel comics and movies, that this weird caste system shows up, where we think street crime isn't a big deal. The MCU movies have this weird class snobbery which seeps in Homecoming and FFH, where they actually seem to think street crime is for the wimps. So Homecoming especially feels condescending, because Spider-Man never gets to call out Tony for his mocking Vulture as "Below my pay grade".

Batman is still considered the biggest superhero in comics even if most of his stories is street crime and he's confined to Gotham City. In DC comics, nobody looks down on characters as small and insignificant based on the threat level.

I agree with you, but depicting Spider-Man as the greatest hero of them all DESPITE his weakness (at least compared to other cosmic characters) is one of the many reasons why Spider-Man is so loved. It's something that dates back since the first Spider-Man & Superman crossover from the '70s.
Spider-Man could work in a cosmic scale threat? Yes, he could. Would he well received in that kind of stories? Doubt it, because the very moment writers try to do something more with the character, they get smashed by fans. Again, Slott depicted Spider-Man as the most efficient Avenger in a couple of issues minimum. Slott's run still suck, albeit for other reasons.
I think that majority of writers are stuck in a "comfort zone" in which Spider-Man is the little guy from Queens and nothing else. They know that Spider-Man could be more than that, but why bother if the general reception of those stories hasn't been so favorable? This strongly hinders Spider-Man's importance in the long run in the Marvel Universe.

Also, you sure know Batman's lore better than me, but I clearly remember not too long ago Batman going toe to toe with Darkseid. Even Darkseid wanted to Clone Batman. Also, Batman beat people waaaaaaay above his power levels (Superman, Deathstroke, Green Lantern, etc). And it works for the character. Dunno why, though.