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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Then Superman isn't going to be in many stories even in his own book, I mean remember recently something made Superman mad and Mongul who is freaking powerhouse himself just happen to appear and it was implied that Superman beat him with no sweat. If he is beating Mongul like they aren't many things that can stop him. Now there is nothing wrong with doing a story about a protagonist doesn't lose but it completely different skill set and type of book needed. I haven't come across many writers who can write that book. Now I watch a lot of Anime and read lots of Manga they are two types that really stand out

    Type 1.There is the type where protagonist keeps getting stronger and stronger ala Dragonball Z, Bleach ,etc

    Type 2. There is the type where protagonist occasionally gets stronger but most of the power ups comes from mastery of their skill ala My Hero Academia,Hunter X Hunter, Demon Slayer

    Type 1 gets in trouble because the hero levels himself out range of villains challenging him and quality friendly characters being useful. Also they keep on having to climb ridiculously levels to challenge the hero. And at some point they realize this and they have to walk back some of the power ups. Often the hero gets unexplained power up that mystery disappears after the challenge is over as way to keep them that level. Type 2 doesn't have this those problems because they don't overpower the character, The power up come from deeper understanding of the powers for superman it would be vibrating through a wall or combine heat vision and freeze breath to destroy metal that could be destroy by his strength alone the cooling and heating of the metal weakened because Superman understood Science. Type 2 is the better way imo and often the protagonist isn't the strongest character even though the characters amazingly strong. Type 2 can be challenge by enemies that they faced in the beginning.

    Superman has the Type 1 problem, Since he has to be challenged, You have to find something stronger than him. And when he wins his power level is set at that point until he needs to be challenged again. And just gradually gets stronger and stronger. Then writers come along and they want to write their big amazing Superman story and he gets stronger and stronger. Someone walks back his powers and he is weaker for a while then process of him get stronger begins again. Having set hard limitations and clear weakness actually help the stories. Walking back some his Superman powers especially his speed and invulnerability would actual be helpful in the long run. Having a state where people like Deathstroke,Joker or Harley could hurt Superman would be helpful because Superman lives in a shared universe. Just saying it is not just jobbing by bad writers.My love of Superman came back when I started to read My Hero Academia a couple years back and that series clever imo fixes the big issues of Superman. I am not saying Superman should be that exactly but knowing what can clearly challenge hero and what his limits is make for a fun read/watch.
    My approach is to let Superman be as super as he wants but make the story something other than who hits harder.

    Superman has to get the Joker to reveal an antidote to a poison used on someone. Beating the Joker up either is no use or ends with a dead useless Joker.
    Lex Luthor has two devices capable of challenging Superman in two remote locations. Both activate at the same time. How does he stop both?
    Clark and Lois are trying to celebrate their anniversary, but jobs for Superman keep interrupting...

    Included in that type of story are things like super hearing still being limited by the speed of sound. So Superman can't hear every yell for help fast enough to get there.
    Superman being fast as light … but not immune to friction so flying at top speed in an atmosphere isn't a bright idea.
    Superman also has to watch energy levels- both his heat vision and a lot of energy weapons that are used on him radiate and can effect nearby objects.

  2. #62
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    The solution is simple.

    Keep the SUPER in Superman. Give me the planet-busting might and FTL speed.

    Just make sure his villains can keep up with him (if not outright surpass him in some way), and most importantly: give his amped-up villains rock-solid incentives NOT to simply destroy Metropolis/Earth/Universe/Multiverse.

    The trick is that They have to convincingly want the place intact even after they supposedly win. They have to value the Earth more than they want to kill Supes ... which is tough.

    Easy enough for Luthor. Zod wants Earth too. But it gets a bit harder for the likes of Brainiac or Mongul to care about this planet in particular.

    It can be done by capable writers. There just aren't a lot of them available.

    And truthfully, DC is never going to be a naturally shared universe the way Marvel organically has been since the Fantastic Four. DC has always been better with more independent franchises that occasionally come together. Marvel is the one where everyone basically lives and operates in NYC, so crossovers are MUCH more common there.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    The solution is simple.

    Keep the SUPER in Superman. Give me the planet-busting might and FTL speed.
    .
    Is Mach speed and City block-busting not SUPER? What is inherently more amazing about one over the other. Just curious

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You and I must have been reading very different post crisis comics then because I recall him doing stuff like beating a robot made of kryptonite, destroying a ship meant to “sterilize” universes and escaping the pull of a black hole. This is the Superman fans claim was “nerfed”.

    “Most powerful man in the world” is not complex and is as generic as you get. All Star Superman isn’t even complex either. He’s as straightforward as you get.


    As is virtually every superhero ever. Including the ones far less powerful than Superman. Power levels don’t play into what makes you a fantasy character.




    I feel like I’m talking to a wall here. Where did I say Superman shouldn’t be allowed to overcome his obstacles?

    He’s also not the main protagonist of his story and universe.




    If these things weren't selling point people will not be fighting over wally being fastest over barry.
    People care far more about Wally not being the Flash, not having his family back and being turned into a killer over him not being faster than Barry.


    Superman isn’t the first superhero. And I thought we were talking about him being the first in-universe?




    If your idea of selling point is superman being morally sound person. Then you don't know marketing. There are thousands of morally sound character with better motivations than superman. I am sorry that alone cannot be selling point. Its generic as ever.
    Again, so is being extremely powerful. Hell, you’ve listed a bunch of character that fit that description and claimed they are successful. You know about marketing as much as I do.




    You do realize that there are character who have space adventures without needing the ability to breathe in space right?


    Yeah, in a limited story with a planned beginning, middle and end.



    All Might has a specific weakness that Superman is often lacking. Compared to DC and Marvel, the supers in MHA are very underpowered. And as for OPM, see again my point about All Star Superman.


    Irrelevant. It doesn’t change the fact that nerfing Superman post crisis didn’t hurt him or even stop them ramping up his power levels.




    I don’t think you know Superman as well as you think you do.
    Yes,those things happened because post crisis superman gained some of precisis swag Not, before. The reason the point i made is relevant is because superman "the post crisis" vision regarding power began to fade also and more precisis elements became added on.

    I never claimed it was. Only said, it helps with power fantasy aspect. Power fantasy is what was selling point of the character right from the first issue of action. Otherwise, people won't be so keen on matching goku or anyother with superman.

    Ofcourse,it does. Why is the hulk popular? You think "strongest one there is" has nothing to do with it. You think "fastest man alive" has nothing to do with flash's appeal. Ofcourse, powerlevel and rankings matters. Mcu hulk was most popular thing after first avengers movie. But, it vain as hulk began to take more "L".As his powerlevel decreased so did his popularity. I mean, even in game he didn't have a retribution match.

    Superman is the main protagonist of his story. As for his world, superman's world existed prior to the existence of dcu as concept. It was doing ok,maybe better.

    That might be true regarding wally. But, ofcourse every wally fan wants their guy to be on top. Heck! Check the comment section of any youtube video that was giving out news that wally is officially the fastest. Everyone of them had barry fans(casuals and cw) being disappointed, sometimes angry.. Etc. So it does matter.

    Really? Then who is it. i vote for phantom or mandrake . Superman is the genre codifer. So he is the first to my knowledge.he is the one that popularised those aspects. In universe, i told you there is legion, nightwing, flamebird.. Etc.

    They are superman analogues, even goku has some superman inspiration . And those stories could easily work with superman instead. "nice/good guy" only marketing approach hasn't worked so far for the character. I mean, post crisis was all about clark being "naive good guy". It only helped in his popularity vaining further. (i have no problems with clark being nice/good guy. He should). Unless, you have another idea along with nerfing changing his power also is moot.powerlevel has helped clark in the past with the marketability of the character. But, marketing with superman just "nice/good" guy has had little success.

    Sure, not like the silversurfer they don't. I was talking about cosmic fights in space. Not some flashgordon style spaceship battle. Those aren't what look for when you read a superman(cosmios is being tackled) or silvercsurfer book. Those were not possible because of superman couldn't breath in space like he used to and the black hole feat only exist because of the removal of that.

    Well, comics have runs don't they.so stories can have start, middle and end. If writers want to adjust Clark's powerlevel accordingly they can. They can even use plot devices for the pure. I am not against that. I am against this notion that clark should never be outrun flash or should never be powerful enough to lift a black hole. I just want interesting stories. So, the middle ground approach has never worked for me. Superman is a character of extremes. He should either be of golden age powerlevel wherd he can get hurt by an advanced gun. So, that there are some exciting street level and noir stories. Or silverage powerlevel where powerlevel is cranked upto eleven where has to face monitor or something . I never said i was agianst nerfing. I am against middle path approach. It doesn't work. It makes him generic

    More, like Ramping up his powerlevel became more necessary. When they realised that restrictions like that are not working.

    Sure, superman doesn't have the injury. But, clark has tons of weakness that allmight doesn't. he can get hurt by getting punched hard, kryptonite, magic, red sun light,lack of yellow sun, weopons used by gods and aliens, sensory overload, telepathic mind control... Etc. As you said, allmights contemporaries are not that powerful compared to superman's. All the more reason for clark to have a competing chance in the dcu.

    I think, i do. There were three races with superman and the flashes in rebirth. One with wally, one with barry. And one in flash war with dire consequences. I don't have a problem with the loses. But, the way clark reacted to it. I didn't see clark bit least bit concerned that he lost. He seemed pretty content with his current speed. I never saw him have regrets especially during the flash war thing where the world was also at stake. If i was clark i lost a raise I would be pretty torn up about it. Clark is a strong man first and foremost. That's the core of the character. He is an athletes. losing should prompt clark work harder or something. I mean, it bothered barry that he could not catch up to wally. Williamson even said barry will be on a journey to be the fastest again.also, i haven't seen much of the athlete in clark other than some parts of the new52 were he was fighting in underground tournaments and in that tom king story with boxing in the past few years. I mean, he got his ass kicked by rogol zaar's generic ass. But, he didn't seem to care. In the second round too. He was basically the same. Heck! kara had more of a fire than clark.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-16-2019 at 05:15 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yet, flash can outrun light or anything really . Diana can become a godess. Manhunter can do all that crazy stuff. Batman can be batgod...etc

    Stop depowering "super" man. If these are all exceptable to you and somehow superman's powerlevel is the only thing that you have problem with. Then it might not be superman's power that is the problem. Problem is superman isn't for you and you hate superman beating any of your favourite characters.
    I agree with you! Stop depowering superman!! I hated the truth and the series he had on the cartoon network where they watered his powers down!!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yes,those things happened because post crisis superman gained some of precisis swag Not, before. The reason the point i made is relevant is because superman "the post crisis" vision regarding power began to fade also and more precisis elements became added on.
    He wasn’t exactly pre crisis level.


    Ofcourse,it does. Why is the hulk popular? You think "strongest one there is" has nothing to do with it. You think "fastest man alive" has nothing to do with flash's appeal.
    Have you conducted a poll on this? Do you go around interviewing people on why they read these characters? You about as much about how often power levels appeal to people as I do. I’ve seen numerous arguments from people who site Hulk and Flash’s powers as reasons for being turned off by them.



    Mcu hulk was most popular thing after first avengers movie.
    No he wasn’t. Hulk’s popularity comes from Mark Ruffalo’s performance.

    Superman is the main protagonist of his story. As for his world, superman's world existed prior to the existence of dcu as concept. It was doing ok,maybe better.
    I don’t think you understood a word I said here. All Might has powers that are more manageable than Superman and even if he is exceptionally powerful he is not the main protagonist and doesn’t always have access to his powers.

    Really? Then who is it. i vote for phantom or mandrake . Superman is the genre codifer. So he is the first to my knowledge.he is the one that popularised those aspects. In universe, i told you there is legion, nightwing, flamebird.. Etc.
    Yes he popularized it. He isn’t the original.

    They are superman analogues, even goku has some superman inspiration . And those stories could easily work with superman instead. "nice/good guy" only marketing approach hasn't worked so far for the character. I mean, post crisis was all about clark being "naive good guy". It only helped in his popularity vaining further. (i have no problems with clark being nice/good guy. He should). Unless, you have another idea along with nerfing changing his power also is moot.powerlevel has helped clark in the past with the marketability of the character. But, marketing with superman just "nice/good" guy has had little success.
    The reasons for Superman’s decline in popularity are far more complex than this and frankly if ramping up his powers was the cure you think it, that issue would have been solved. It hasn’t.

    Sure, not like the silversurfer they don't. I was talking about cosmic fights in space. Not some flashgordon style spaceship battle. Those aren't what look for when you read a superman(cosmios is being tackled) or silvercsurfer book.
    Says you.

    Well, comics have runs don't they.so stories can have start, middle and end. If writers want to adjust Clark's powerlevel accordingly they can. They can even use plot devices for the pure. I am not against that. I am against this notion that clark should never be outrun flash or should never be powerful enough to lift a black hole.
    The main comics do not have an end. They keep going and going and going. The writers are already doing what you suggest. They keep powering down Clark either by ignoring previous feats or using plot devices to weaken him. It hasn’t made for satisfactory storytelling in the long term. Plenty of Superman fans will tell you that.



    I just want interesting stories.
    So do I. power levels aren’t stories.

    More, like Ramping up his powerlevel became more necessary. When they realised that restrictions like that are not working.[/QUOTE]

    Sure, superman doesn't have the injury. But, clark has tons of weakness that allmight doesn't. he can get hurt by getting punched hard, kryptonite, magic, red sun light,lack of yellow sun, weopons used by gods and aliens, sensory overload, telepathic mind control... Etc. As you said, allmights contemporaries are not that powerful compared to superman's. All the more reason for clark to have a competing chance in the dcu.
    Pretty much the only two of these that wouldn’t have any effect on All Might are kryptonite and red sun. if All Might’s contemporaries can get popularity with reduced or manageable power levels, then clearly Superman’s power levels being reduced is not what is harming his appeal.

    I think, i do. There were three races with superman and the flashes in rebirth. One with wally, one with barry. And one in flash war with dire consequences. I don't have a problem with the loses. But, the way clark reacted to it. I didn't see clark bit least bit concerned that he lost. He seemed pretty content with his current speed. I never saw him have regrets especially during the flash war thing where the world was also at stake. If i was clark i lost a raise I would be pretty torn up about it. Clark is a strong man first and foremost. That's the core of the character. He is an athletes. losing should prompt clark work harder or something. I mean, it bothered barry that he could not catch up to wally. Williamson even said barry will be on a journey to be the fastest again.also, i haven't seen much of the athlete in clark other than some parts of the new52 were he was fighting in underground tournaments and in that tom king story with boxing in the past few years. I mean, he got his ass kicked by rogol zaar's generic ass. But, he didn't seem to care. In the second round too. He was basically the same. Heck! kara had more of a fire than clark.
    Clark is not an athlete. He is not Goku. He doesn’t fight for challenges or to surpass someone else. He uses his powers to aid others. Clark is not so petty that he’d throw a tantrum over someone who isn’t a villain beating him in a race. What you’re describing is a typical shonen rival character like Vegeta.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I hate that scene with every fiber of my being.

    "Hey sorry about all the damage caused in my 5 minute fight with Metallo, but I figured it was better to just hold back and not put forth any real effort. And luckily Mala and Jax-Ur were just as interested in holding back so I didn't have to really use my full powers there either. I hope doing all these superfeats at like 10% power hasn't caused any serious injuries or deaths."
    I loved this scene!! We got to see Superman not holding back! Loved it!!!

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    “Most powerful man in the world” is not complex and is as generic as you get. All Star Superman isn’t even complex either. He’s as straightforward as you get.
    The work must be more complex than you are giving it credit for, or else it wouldn't be hailed as the best single Superman stories in recent years, have lots of critical praise, and be an evergeen seller and a accessible graphic novel in the same league as TDKR, Watchmen and the Sandman series.

    What complex stories does post-Crisis Superman have? His most prolific one is getting beaten to death by a bone monster.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Superman isn’t the first superhero.
    He effectively is in the ways that matter. The genre, and several other characters like Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel and even Spider-Man wouldn't exist without him to be an inspiration or be a response the formula he established.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, so is being extremely powerful. Hell, you’ve listed a bunch of character that fit that description and claimed they are successful. You know about marketing as much as I do.
    Superman's morality and power, along with general weirdness, is part of what makes him great. He shouldn't be pigeon holed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And as for OPM, see again my point about All Star Superman.
    He was still challenged in multiple ways in that story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Irrelevant. It doesn’t change the fact that nerfing Superman post crisis didn’t hurt him or even stop them ramping up his power levels.
    Batman surpassed him in that period. Which may have happened no matter what, but I don't think depowering him and making generally more boring helped in the long run. Damage had been done when they started to ramp him up again, though it didn't get really bad until the 2000s.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The work must be more complex than you are giving it credit for, or else it wouldn't be hailed as the best single Superman stories in recent years, have lots of critical praise, and be an evergeen seller and a accessible graphic novel in the same league as TDKR, Watchmen and the Sandman series.
    I should have been clearer, but I was referring to the character in the work not the work itself. The story is certainly complex but I would say Superman in it is not. That’s part of the appeal in fact and Morrison says as much about Superman when praising him/

    What complex stories does post-Crisis Superman have?
    The Gangbuster arc, the Man of Steel, Birthright just off the top of my head.



    Superman's morality and power, along with general weirdness, is part of what makes him great. He shouldn't be pigeon holed.
    If anything I’m arguing the opposite of pigeon holing him. I’ve simply said he doesn’t need to be the most powerful hero on earth. The other guy's been adamant that he should be and won't budge on that or acknowledge any other traits that might be appealing.




    He was still challenged in multiple ways in that story.
    And the same can happen without him reaching that power level.




    Batman surpassed him in that period. Which may have happened no matter what, but I don't think depowering him and making generally more boring helped in the long run. Damage had been done when they started to ramp him up again, though it didn't get really bad until the 2000s.
    He was seen as boring before that period and ramping up his power levels again clearly did not cure that for some people.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-16-2019 at 08:11 AM.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I should have been clearer, but I was referring to the character in the work not the work itself. The story is certainly complex but I would say Superman in it is not. That’s part of the appeal in fact and Morrison says as much about Superman when praising him/
    I don't know if the story can be complex if the main character it revolved around isn't complex himself. I don't see how he is any less complex than other versions. It being able to convey so much with such a seemingly straightforward narrative and character
    Even Morrison said that, Death of the Author is in place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The Gangbuster arc, the Man of Steel, Birthright just off the top of my head.
    No opinion on the other two, but MoS is pretty dated and bad and I wouldn't say it's super complex.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If anything I’m arguing the opposite of pigeon holing him. I’ve simply said he doesn’t need to be the most powerful hero on earth. The other guy's been adamant that he should be and won't budge on that or acknowledge any other traits that might be appealing.
    Yes but you've also said that the appeal to the character is just that he's a good guy and he doesn't need to be the most powerful, but the whole package is appealing. he does need to be the strongest in terms of raw strength and the most powerful all rounder, it's what he was designed to be. It's the entire thing put together that's appealing. if they just make him over powered every power man he's generic, but he also is if he's just super nice and not anymore special than anyone else.
    Even the proponents of this still admit that characters like Zatanna or Dr. Fate are more powerful than him in other ways and that WW, Shazam and MM are close in strength without as many weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And the same can happen without him reaching that power level.
    The fact that it can be done at that power level means that he doesn't need to be depowered. It's just comes off as laziness and maybe the author should write Batman or Spider-Man instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He was seen as boring before that period and ramping up his power levels again clearly did not cure that for some people.
    I'd say his ruined continuity and other media running with that take hasn't helped, hence "too little, too late."

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He wasn’t exactly pre crisis level.



    Have you conducted a poll on this? Do you go around interviewing people on why they read these characters? You about as much about how often power levels appeal to people as I do. I’ve seen numerous arguments from people who site Hulk and Flash’s powers as reasons for being turned off by them.




    No he wasn’t. Hulk’s popularity comes from Mark Ruffalo’s performance.


    I don’t think you understood a word I said here. All Might has powers that are more manageable than Superman and even if he is exceptionally powerful he is not the main protagonist and doesn’t always have access to his powers.


    Yes he popularized it. He isn’t the original.


    The reasons for Superman’s decline in popularity are far more complex than this and frankly if ramping up his powers was the cure you think it, that issue would have been solved. It hasn’t.


    Says you.


    The main comics do not have an end. They keep going and going and going. The writers are already doing what you suggest. They keep powering down Clark either by ignoring previous feats or using plot devices to weaken him. It hasn’t made for satisfactory storytelling in the long term. Plenty of Superman fans will tell you that.




    So do I. power levels aren’t stories.

    More, like Ramping up his powerlevel became more necessary. When they realised that restrictions like that are not working.

    Pretty much the only two of these that wouldn’t have any effect on All Might are kryptonite and red sun. if All Might’s contemporaries can get popularity with reduced or manageable power levels, then clearly Superman’s power levels being reduced is not what is harming his appeal.


    Clark is not an athlete. He is not Goku. He doesn’t fight for challenges or to surpass someone else. He uses his powers to aid others. Clark is not so petty that he’d throw a tantrum over someone who isn’t a villain beating him in a race. What you’re describing is a typical shonen rival character like Vegeta.[/QUOTE]
    So, he a level closer to that of older pre crisis power level. And it is because writers felt the need for superman to be at that level to be interesting.

    Nope! No polls required. Forgive me, if i am being arrogant.i observed that from comments from various forums and sites. Those people who got turned of by there power level. well maybe the characters wasn't for them. And thats ok. I realised that captain marvel ain't for me. Doesn't mean Changing the characters powerlevel to suit my need will be cool. It's like blaming cheetah for running fast. And there will be people to offset that who likes the powerlevel.

    I wouldn't deny ruffalos appeal. But, hulk was abeast in the first avengers. Ruffalos performance didn't help hulk in endgame nor in age of ultron, infinity war.

    Him not being protagonist is besides the point. All might has power suited to his environment/world and he still does "shine as the top guy". His powers are basically that of golden age superman. It isn't more manageable. Its more street level.only people who can't write out their cosmic thing will have a problem with managing higher powerlevels.

    If clark isn't the original. Then, who is i am genuinely curious ? I think it was @SiegePerilous. Who said clark was the first one to codify a "superhero". Before that the only characters i know who remotely like superheroes are phantom, mandrake, flash Gordon.. Etc.

    So, you want clark to fly a spaceship and do gun fights like flash gordon or star trek guys.That's s weird. Well,i am not looking for that. I want fisticuffs and weird beam battles in space with ftl.

    unlike allmight, superman has two worlds. One is cosmic/bizarre space which requires clarks powers to be great. Two is street level Metropolis and daily planet which does not require that kind powerlevel ala golden age superman. Superman one cannot in the second will be less interesting. Superman two cannot be in setting one without being a losing all the time(conner in young justice tvseries). So, you propose middle ground to manage things by making him stronger than golden age and much weaker than silverage. But, that just makes him generic, removes the mystique of the character. My view is to have a sortof a switch that is binary (to switch between above two states) according to writers need, instead of using a regulator to restrict. Does that make sense?now what that switch may be. Beats me, it can be any sort of plot device. Like jor el creating suit.

    Powerlevel aren't stories but they are important part of the stories. It helps in suspension of disbelief in action genre and also helps in world building.

    I never said otherwise. But, to argue that powerlevel wasn't one of the reasons. You need to provide me proof. Cause from where i am standing. Bruce became "the man" and power fantasy after he beat "the man" which was clark.

    Precisely, my point restrictions will only cause clark to look like "wet towel" or generic . So, they will try to counter by increasing his powerlevel and adding other attributes like before by mixing precisis elements in post crisis superman.

    But that's the thing. Allmight's contemporaries do get stronger. Superman's contemporary are getting powerfull. Why restrict superman alone. If flash is getting faster and faster. Why shouldn't superman be allowed to get more powerful? It removes power fantasy aspects,if everyone can do what superman can. All might can do things his contemporaries can't. And removing superman's powerlevel doesn't decrease his contemporaries powerlevel which are always increasing(force quest, god powers, emotional spectrum.. Etc) .

    I beg to differ. Clark is very much an athlete. He is basically a strong man. His design was based around strong men. Strong man aspects seeps through his origin. Without strongmen there is no superman. Superman is an enhanced version of a strong man. Boxing is also part of the characters history.it is not pettiness to hate losing or being competitive. You are putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about tantrum. No, i am not describing a shonen rival(ok may have gone a little shonen. It was not intentional.even then a protagonist). I was describing an athlete. The flashes are basically runners. This all comes down to ancient greek flavour of dc comics characters.And greeks were original Olympics creators.


  12. #72
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I loved this exchange! You two crack me up!



    This. I'm a well known Golden Age fan and I've said before that bringing Clark back down to "leap tall buildings" levels could be a lot of fun but if you do, you're completely shifting the thematics behind the character and the DCU itself. Superman's whole deal is that he's supposed to be the strongest guy around, and his story is all about his restraint and how he decides to apply that power and where he decides not to. You de-power him without doing it across the board and it changes *everything* about DC. And that *could* be an interesting story, because its not the raw power that makes Clark a hero, but nerfing him and not everyone else is changing the foundations of the entire universe and you better know what you're doing, and you better be doing it for better reasons than a personal bias against Superman, because that motivation will only lead to ruin for everybody.

    If you dont like highly powerful heroes, I get it. And hey, they *are* harder to write; you need an actual imagination to challenge Superman or Green Lantern or Flash, while guys like Batman and Arrow just need a smuck with a gun (if you forget the Batgod anyway, who's the most ridiculously powerful d-bag in comics). And I can see the argument for de-powering everyone. I'd love a pulp style JSA story with all the old classic heroes, back when a battalion of nazi soldiers were a serious threat to the heroes.

    But if the problem is just that Superman is too powerful....then that's just BS. Clark's not even the most powerful guy in the League's speed dial. We've got reality warpers like Firestorm, Fate, Zatanna, etc., and people like Diana, Shazam, and J'onn, who are all *almost* as physically strong, have fewer weaknesses, and almost as much (or more) utility. Tell me, Diana is almost as strong as Clark, has no weaknesses at all, and is a better fighter. How is she not over powered but Clark is? Shazam is almost as strong as Clark (equally strong if you listen to his fans), has no weaknesses, and has access to the ultimate plot device power; magic. J'onn is almost as strong as Clark, has fewer weaknesses (though, I'll admit, fire is a pretty major flaw....but still, it's one weaknesses compared to Clark's 3-5), and has even more powers than Clark himself does. If those guys aren't OP, neither is Superman. And if you think he is....then that's just a personal bias.....likely caused by not reading enough Superman.
    Great post. Thank you. It seems it's only a problem if Superman is very powerful but not with other characters (marvel or DC). Superman's niche is that he is the strongest. Let him at least have that. Batman is many things but that's ok?

  13. #73

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    Look, i can be pretty bone headed. Forgive me if i have. But, i never said superman needs to be strongest. All i said was his powerlevel was part/one of the reason he got popular. You can't just throw the power fantasy aspects out without gutting the character. It also helps in marketability. While being "good guy thing" great it alone just isn't much of a draw. If you are taking his power fantasy aspect, then there should be something else that you replace it with that is equally or more marketable.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Look, i can be pretty bone headed. Forgive me if i have. But, i never said superman needs to be strongest. All i said was his powerlevel was part/one of the reason he got popular. You can't just throw the power fantasy aspects out without gutting the character. It also helps in marketability. While being "good guy thing" great it alone just isn't much of a draw. If you are taking his power fantasy aspect, then there should be something else that you replace it with that is equally or more marketable.
    Agreed, it's one of the reasons why I don't like his portrayal in the Supergirl show. They threw him under the bus to prop a copycat up.. wow, what were DC thinking?? They took all his mistique away in that show.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 09-17-2019 at 05:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Superman should never have gone beyond Toon-YJ-Superboy's levels of power.
    ?????????
    Say what now?

    Superman's creators wanted him to be a modern interp of the hero. While I suppose what you suggest does fit with the lower end of what they using as a model (Samson) there is no way that could fit the Hercules upper level. And Superman should be . . . SUPER

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