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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Flash gets more broken and broken and his powers have gone unchecked by anyone for awhile
    He is more than due for a bit of a depowering

    Superman is bad too but the more crazy stuff he does the more his fans feel he is being written badly when he isn't portrayed as a walking god

    Green Lantern is pretty weak because a lot of writers lack imagination to use his powers creatively outside of lasers and constructs

    Wonder Woman is really pretty weak all things considered, She is only a good fighter she is not really as strong as Supes or as fast as Flash. All she excels at is being a warrior
    That is one of the most uninformed opinions of WW I have ever read on the internet.

    And I read boards like SuperHeroChat and Its Clobbering Time which had hardcore WW haters.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I just wonder if you could write an ongoing pulpier DCU or if like prior attempts to depower characters it would just be a constant battle with the collective memory of the DCU. We have a Superman who can leap tall buildings, but have to keep reminding the creative teams on Justice League he can't fly into space. We get a Flash who can run at Mach speeds but have to keep reminding everyone it means he can't reach everywhere on Earth in a blink. We start off with a Batman who is a bad-ass normal but keep getting arguments about how Bruce could adapt some technology to match Superman or Wonder Woman's stats,

    I personally would love to read stories in a world where the heroes individually were only powerful enough to defend at most a single city. Something like the League would actually be needed for the foes who threatened say Los Angeles and New York simultaneously. But I fear that maybe two years into such a line we'd have Flash and Superman racing from New York to Washington before a villain finished a sentence or Batman going toe-to-toe with Kryptonians using prototype Wayne technology.
    For some reason I just cannot get with the human technology matching the strength of beings in the upper level. Could they match an Aquaman or a Risk's strength? Okay I can see that. But above that is a stretch for me and Herc level is a nope

  3. #78
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    That is one of the most uninformed opinions of WW I have ever read on the internet.
    There's been a lot of that in this thread. >shrug<

    But seriously, Diana is terrifying. Probably the most dangerous person in the League (unless Barry trips over time again, he's unintentionally the scariest guy in the JLA just because of stuff like that, but Diana's definitely the most dangerous). Hey, who was the writer who, semi-recently, couldn't think of a way for Batman to beat her so his "in case Diana goes evil" plan was "throw Superman at her and hope to hell he actually wins the fight"? Probably one of Bruce's worst plans, in a straight up fight Diana has the advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I should have been clearer, but I was referring to the character in the work not the work itself. The story is certainly complex but I would say Superman in it is not..
    There's certainly been stories where Clark's written poorly and in a painfully generic and boring manner. But that's just bad writing. Clark himself is probably one of the most nuanced and complex characters in comics. Which is also probably part of why so few writers (and fans) actually get him.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Great post. Thank you. It seems it's only a problem if Superman is very powerful but not with other characters (marvel or DC). Superman's niche is that he is the strongest. Let him at least have that. Batman is many things but that's ok?
    Eh, Clark's the poster child for "too powerful!" complaints, even when he's not actually all that powerful. People were still bitching about this back in early post-Crisis when Clark's powers had been cut in half and he'd struggle to lift the Planet globe and other heroes like Shazam and Diana were said to be just as strong as he was (see? This whole depower thing has already been done, it fixed nothing, and for a whole lot of people it made Clark boring and vanilla because all the fantastical had been sucked away). Way I see it, anyone who prefers street level or mid-tier power levels are going to aim all their complaints at Clark, regardless of whether there's other characters who equal or surpass him. Because he's the gods damn Superman and all other superheroes are compared to him. And people who don't read Superman are going to throw this at him too, simply because they don't realize that the guy is seriously challenged constantly, all the damn time. I mean, someone said earlier in this thread that the idea of Clark almost getting killed is a new facet of the mythos. Ive been reading Superman comics for over two decades, and him nearly dying is just as common as it is for everyone else (if not more so), so.....I just chalk it up to ignorance of the character and how he actually functions.
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  4. #79
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I believe that particular Batman contingency plan for Wonder Woman happened still during Johns' JL run, but I could be wrong. And it was indeed pretty cool. A box for each containing their weaknesses and Diana's was empty. She has no major weakness. At the time the best Bruce could come up with was Superman because of his own power and because how she felt about him. That's a genuinely scary person should they suddenly leave the side of angels.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  5. #80
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yet, flash can outrun light or anything really . Diana can become a godess. Manhunter can do all that crazy stuff. Batman can be batgod...etc

    Stop depowering "super" man. If these are all exceptable to you and somehow superman's powerlevel is the only thing that you have problem with. Then it might not be superman's power that is the problem. Problem is superman isn't for you and you hate superman beating any of your favourite characters.
    I'd dial them all back a bit. Including the Batgod.
    I'm in agreement - I do think they all are too overpowered (though I'm not sure what YJ Superboy's power level is these days, since I decided not to tune in for season 3). People can say it's all about the writing, but power levels like that almost require "big" stories, city-destroying events, massive amounts of civilian death, etc. They eliminate small stories, investigations, etc. And I never wanted Diana a god - I like her as an Amazon, with the same powers of the other Amazons, and beating them only by her accomplishment (though not with ordinary humans being able to attain that level of strength as in golden age). Batman is so overblown for a human, you could forget he didn't have powers (it's not uncommon for him do things human simply can't do, strength wise, etc.). Barry started with crazy abilities (running in space!) that he should lose, and at least no speed-thief, electrokinesis, or scouts. It may be blasphemous, but I don't actually like the time-travel tied into Flashes, though it's certainly not a deal-breaker for me (nor are the power levels on the others). I do think Diana and Superman should be on par, strength-wise (at least in the sense of relative to a human woman and man of their sizes), though she has much more training in fighting, and should definitely top him in skill, especially in the early days (I like idea of her, the first other super-strength person he meets, training him). Both are also very smart, and that shouldn't be forgotten. Heck, I like the weakness to yellow for Green Lanterns, and Raven and Cyborg at original power levels (though I'm okay with him gaining nanite ability to change appearance).

    I just feel like when they are so powerful that the only things that can threaten them also threaten the entire world.

    And it's not even just strength - when Superman can listen to the entire world's heartbeats and determine if a specific person is there - nope, not for me.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 09-17-2019 at 06:34 PM.

  6. #81
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I'm in agreement - I do think they all are too overpowered
    And that's an opinion I have absolutely no issue with. I disagree, I like my over the top crazy powerful heroes, but I definitely see the argument. And it *does* put more strain on writers (which I have no sympathy or indulgence for, but I do recognize that many writers can't wrap their heads around this sorta thing). And like I've said here, I'd be all over a pulp book that dealt with heroes who could only leap tall buildings. I just find complaints about Clark specifically to be pretty bogus when so, so many people can equal or surpass him in their own ways.

    but power levels like that almost require "big" stories, city-destroying events, massive amounts of civilian death, etc. They eliminate small stories, investigations, etc.
    If you want to put the hero's life at risk, yeah quite possibly. There's still work arounds but if you want a good solid slug-fest the world itself is likely in danger, yeah. But there's always a way to challenge a hero like Clark, Diana, or Barry in a way that renders their powers moot. Action has been doing a great job of that. Look at Red Cloud; she's not half as powerful as Clark is, yet she's fought him to a standstill at least twice and nearly killed him once. If my memory is correct, the only reason Clark's even alive right now is because she made the choice to not end him (details are fuzzy, but either way she's a solid counter for Clark's powers). And the Invisible Mafia and Leviathan have been huge problems for Clark, yet he could tear all of them apart with ease if he got his hands on them.

    You just gotta think outside the box. Look at aspects of the character to challenge and you can always find a way to circumvent any level of power.

    It may be blasphemous, but I don't actually like the time-travel tied into Flashes
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  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Here is my crazy idea or at least other fans might think so -

    Lois should have superpowers of some sort she is boring without them.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Here is my crazy idea or at least other fans might think so -

    Lois should have superpowers of some sort she is boring without them.
    She does. She has combat and detective skills on a par with Batman. She is the Goddess of reporters.

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    She does. She has combat and detective skills on a par with Batman. She is the Goddess of reporters.
    I mean super strength, speed, armor, exact that sort of thing.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There's been a lot of that in this thread. >shrug<

    But seriously, Diana is terrifying. Probably the most dangerous person in the League (unless Barry trips over time again, he's unintentionally the scariest guy in the JLA just because of stuff like that, but Diana's definitely the most dangerous). Hey, who was the writer who, semi-recently, couldn't think of a way for Batman to beat her so his "in case Diana goes evil" plan was "throw Superman at her and hope to hell he actually wins the fight"? Probably one of Bruce's worst plans, in a straight up fight Diana has the advantage.
    One of the few straight up good scenes Johns has written with the Trinity.

    Short of bringing back the "losing her powers when a man chains her bracelets together" weakness that is probably best left in the past*, Diana doesn't have any consistent weaknesses.

    *Though some of the basic themes and imagery behind the weakness, like a woman being bound by the patriarchal chains and breaking free through either her own efforts or the help of other women, are pretty strong. It's just a difficult thing to put into practice on a regular basis in modern writing, and I feel like many writers wouldn't get what Marston was going for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There's certainly been stories where Clark's written poorly and in a painfully generic and boring manner. But that's just bad writing. Clark himself is probably one of the most nuanced and complex characters in comics. Which is also probably part of why so few writers (and fans) actually get him.
    I think there is a lot of subtle complexity and nuance to Clark in All-Star, it's just not very "loud" (for lack of a better word) compared to what we typically get in superhero comics: soap opera story telling and melodramatic monologues (inner and outer) that explain what a character is feeling. He kind of excels in comics that eschew that type of writing, which was common place in the modern eras in both companies. Marvel did it earlier, but DC's post Crisis era had it as well

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There's been a lot of that in this thread. >shrug<

    But seriously, Diana is terrifying. Probably the most dangerous person in the League (unless Barry trips over time again, he's unintentionally the scariest guy in the JLA just because of stuff like that, but Diana's definitely the most dangerous). Hey, who was the writer who, semi-recently, couldn't think of a way for Batman to beat her so his "in case Diana goes evil" plan was "throw Superman at her and hope to hell he actually wins the fight"? Probably one of Bruce's worst plans, in a straight up fight Diana has the advantage.



    There's certainly been stories where Clark's written poorly and in a painfully generic and boring manner. But that's just bad writing. Clark himself is probably one of the most nuanced and complex characters in comics. Which is also probably part of why so few writers (and fans) actually get him.



    Eh, Clark's the poster child for "too powerful!" complaints, even when he's not actually all that powerful. People were still bitching about this back in early post-Crisis when Clark's powers had been cut in half and he'd struggle to lift the Planet globe and other heroes like Shazam and Diana were said to be just as strong as he was (see? This whole depower thing has already been done, it fixed nothing, and for a whole lot of people it made Clark boring and vanilla because all the fantastical had been sucked away). Way I see it, anyone who prefers street level or mid-tier power levels are going to aim all their complaints at Clark, regardless of whether there's other characters who equal or surpass him. Because he's the gods damn Superman and all other superheroes are compared to him. And people who don't read Superman are going to throw this at him too, simply because they don't realize that the guy is seriously challenged constantly, all the damn time. I mean, someone said earlier in this thread that the idea of Clark almost getting killed is a new facet of the mythos. Ive been reading Superman comics for over two decades, and him nearly dying is just as common as it is for everyone else (if not more so), so.....I just chalk it up to ignorance of the character and how he actually functions.
    That is one of the other things that I thought was strange in recent years. It is like in order to build up the Flashes people have to pretend that heroes have never been able to time travel and he did it first. The top 3 supers all had that element in their stories decades ago. But people act like the Flash doing that with with speed force makes them the most powerful. It is weird.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I believe that particular Batman contingency plan for Wonder Woman happened still during Johns' JL run, but I could be wrong. And it was indeed pretty cool. A box for each containing their weaknesses and Diana's was empty. She has no major weakness. At the time the best Bruce could come up with was Superman because of his own power and because how she felt about him. That's a genuinely scary person should they suddenly leave the side of angels.
    You are right. It was in Johns' New 52 JL story. He was doing a poor Mark Waid impression who, to my surprise, did particularly well acknowledging her ability and levels and coming up with a clever solution in line with her deal for the most part. In that Babylon story the only one Waid really hard core failed on was.....AQUAMAN.

  13. #88
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    To me, personally, the only place this even matters is when putting Superman against other fictional characters.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    That is one of the other things that I thought was strange in recent years. It is like in order to build up the Flashes people have to pretend that heroes have never been able to time travel and he did it first. The top 3 supers all had that element in their stories decades ago. But people act like the Flash doing that with with speed force makes them the most powerful. It is weird.
    How many of those heroes could do it under their own power?

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    That is one of the other things that I thought was strange in recent years. It is like in order to build up the Flashes people have to pretend that heroes have never been able to time travel and he did it first. The top 3 supers all had that element in their stories decades ago. But people act like the Flash doing that with with speed force makes them the most powerful. It is weird.
    I think this is a symptom of the overall.....bleaching.....and re-structuring the DCU got around COIE. A whole lot of stuff got pulled back, trimmed, tightened up.....IP's tend to stick closer to their main themes now, and do fewer stories that delve into unusual territory. And in this purge, the Flash franchise held onto the concept. Since DC's treated like a pantheon where each major hero is the "god" of their respective domains and subgenres, Flash ended up being the time travel guy because he was the only one still doing it on a semi-consistent basis.
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