Question about the "NEW" Generation of Heroes

[Restingvoice]

Luke got derailed by Bat editorial because he was suppose to be the love interest of Babs in her book. The issue was EDITORIAL fell into a battle of power with Burnside Batgirl team. It's why they left and went to Image to do Motor Crush (formerly an ongoing and now OGN format). Luke was stepping away from the suit to run his own company (in Babs's book).

Luke was bought in to bring Batwing to Gotham. That is all that was about.

Duke started off an a little kid helping Batman and then appearing as Robin in Future End. After that he somehow got aged up for the Endgame run where his parents got gased by Joker.

We then get We Are Robin that turned Duke into yet ANOTHER stereotypical black boy like Wally. Implying he was locked up, troubled kid and bounced from foster home to foster home. Mind you he did all this within WEEKS/MONTHS of his parents being gas.

Rebirth comes around and pretty much IGNORES We Are Robin. And in Batman he gets crapped on and limited to one page cameos once you got past the first two volumes of Batman. Tom King shows ZERO interest in writing him.
Batman & Signal tries to fix Duke but you can only do so much in 3 issues-that seem to be lip service.

Wallace is a whole another issue by himself. Aside from Priest no one is really interested in making Wallace interesting.

And that is where we are now.

The classic issue for a lot of these guys is finding someone WILLING to write them. Along with a book to showcase them in. This is where you need a DC Showcase or OGN. Or backups in books.

Duke didn't get aged up. His first appearance as a kid was 6 years in the past.

[lemonpeace]

Hello,

I have some questions about the "NEW" Generation of Heroes.
Ok I havent read much about the "NEW" Generation, but I would like to hear your opinions and maybe you have some background Information why they are created.

-Wallace West: I dont really understand the character. I liked his father, because he had a cool look and it was a cool take to have an Anti-Hero-Reverse-Flash AND he was one of the Villains who I really had empathy for.
But I just dont understand Wallace...Is he based on the TV Series Kid Flash?
We already had Bart as Kid Flash and we had Wally West as Kid Flash...I liked the "old" Version of him better with the SILVER/RED Costume..
I personally would have liked more if he would have got another Code-Name and his own colors and a more unique look.
Like green/yellow or so and dreadlocks or so, I find the actual look to simple and the Kid Flash name and Costume is more connected with Wally and Bart, so it feels strange for me to have another Person using it.

-Lucas Fox: Havent read much of him, but he is a genius and good fighter...OK...We already have Tim,Dick,Bruce,Jason,Damian....
I like more Cassandra Cain,Jean Paul,Stephanie,Barbara and Harper who arent so perfect and have a more interesting background story.

-Duke Thomas: There were Jokes also inside Comic Books comparing him to Robin and I have to say that I also dont really understand the character.

-Kenan Kong: I liked the early version better, but he is too powerful for me....I mean he ISNT blood related to Superman etc. so I find his power levels too exaggerated and he also seems to have less weaknesses than Kryptonians which makes him to EXTREMELY overpowered...


Crush instead is one of the few characters who I really like...

I'm gonna try to address these to the best of my ability

Wallace West: Wallace West isn't based on the TV show version, the TV version was inspired by him (fun fact: the color scheme of Wallace's car when he was first introduced in the show is based on the colors of his New 52 future Flash suit).

I don't think it's any weirder for him to be Kid Flash than someone else picking up the mantle of Aqualad or Robin. At a time where Wally was either nonexistence or a full-on Flash and Impulse wasn't around, it made sense that he filled the Kid Flash role and he bringa his own flavor to the Kid Flash mantle; working best under Christopher Priest but Adam Glass does pretty good too. I like that he's depicted as a gear-head and, when he's written well, he often feels more mature and grounded as Kid Flash than Wally or Bart (as Impulse), and feels more like "the cool kid" than either did. The problem is DC tends to use the character to sporadically and hasn't done anything major with him so, like a lot of new characters, he never feels like he's really having an impact or progressing in a meaningful way.

I do agree with you that he should do something with his visual design to make him stand out more among the speedsters but I don't want him leaving Kid Flash just yet. I want to see him do more things of significance, hit some big milestones, as Kid Flash before he matures out of the role. While I wasn't a big fan of his original silver/red suit, i do think the color scheme could work if they tweaked the hues and suit design a bit, and I think they should go the Arrowverse Mr. Terrific route with his hair; afro in his civvys and cornrows when he's on duty.

Luke Fox: this one's gonna be brief because Luke's situation bothers me. Luke Fox was brought in as a half-assed attempt to keep the Batwing title afloat by, in a move that's so tone-deaf it's never heard a tune to its life, taking the "African agent of Batman" premise and turning it into "just a black Batman character in a power suit. you like War Machine? it's War Machine but Batman" probably because DC didn't really have anyone who could write an interesting African character in Africa and figured it'd be easier to just try to retool Batwing into something more culturally familiar. He was supposed to be Batman's "international agent" but the problem is that was NEVER made very clear and by taking away the cultural element of Batwing, you rob him of a really distinguishing trait. So the moment Duke was introduced, another black male bat-character, he lost all novelty and was living on borrow time. Luke was a bad idea.

Duke Thomas: While it's clear that Duke or a Duke-like character (read:a young black male) was conceived as the next Robin, there were small tidbits of a young future robin who was black in some other batman art predating Duke by a little, we don't know how early in Duke's development they decided to pivot to a different path. We do see Duke start to pop up a few months after Damian's death but by the time Duke took over the We are Robin movement, Damian had already long since been resurrected, so it's clear by that point Duke was never supposed to take on the Robin persona officially. Duke's problem is DC editorial has no faith in the character, We are Robin ran for about a year but since then no writer besides Snyder has had either the chance to flesh out the character effectively (Tony Patrick) or just have no interest in progressing the character at all (Tom King). Bryan Hill seems to be using Outsiders' opening arc to flesh out Duke a bit more so we'll see if DC can put him back on track.

As for him as a character in-canon, I actually think he has a lot going for him if used correctly but, again going back to DC not having faith in growing the character, his story has been stretched too thin across too many titles for too long; people are having a hard time keeping up. Duke needs a major story to establish who he is and what he's about so they can have a fresh jumping-on point for him as a character. So I'm gonna lay out everything we know about Duke's story so far chronologically:

Duke's parents are Elaine Thomas, a metahuman and the wife of Doug Thomas, and Gnomon, an immortal metahuman villain. At some point before Elaine was pregnant with Duke she was offered to join the Immortal Man's Immortal Men (long story don't worry about it) but she refused and when she was pregnant with Duke she turned away from Gnomon and the other immortals in order to live a low-profile normal life as a social worker; this is where she met Doug, a construction worker, and they began raising Duke as his son. When he is born, Duke is flagged as a metahuman at birth and this eventually leads to both the Joker and Batman taking an interest in him later in life. Duke was born and bred in the Narrows of Gotham, one of the many impoverished areas of Gotham, where he lives a relatively normal life as a kid until he's about 10 or 11, when the Riddler takes over Gotham in the Zero Year event and this is when he meets Bruce Wayne and Batman for the first time. After Zero Year about 5 years pass, around this point people like Talia al Ghul, R'as al Ghul, The Joker, and Batman all know of or find out about Duke and his mother and we arrive at the events of Endgame. Endgame happens, his parents get Jokerized in a twisted bastardization of Batman's origin using Duke's family because Batman had taken an interest in them, but Batman saved Duke and then dies in a fistfight with the Jokers in a Lazarus Pit cave. Duke goes into foster care after parents go missing and he goes from foster home to foster home because Gotham is a broken city and he was more interested in finding his parents than the police were. this is when he linked up with the We are Robin gang, secretly organized and guided by Alfred in Bruce's absence. Duke was a "Robin" up until Bruce's return as Batman, after Bruce's stint as an amnesiac following his resurrection, and after he found his parents still jokerized, Bruce offered him a position as his protege. He trains with Bruce for around a year until the events of the Cursed Wheel and Dark Days: Metal where Duke finds out (from the Joker) that he is a metahuman and that Batman's been observing him longer than he expected. After discovering his powers he becomes Signal and that's when Batman and The Signal takes place, where Gnomon finds Duke and tells him the truth of his parentage. After that, we go into his time on Bryan Hill's Detective Comics arc leading to Batman and the Outsiders. My biggest issue with Duke is his current superhero suit, it's way too derivative of Batman's for me. he could use a redesign that makes him more individual and not just another black face in the bat-team to be replaced when the next black face comes along.

Kenan Kong: His power-levels make sense, he's not nearly as strong as Superman (as far as we know) but he's powered by kryptonian chi energy, so it makes sense he's so powerful. He's powered by the magical essence of one of the most powerful alien beings in the universe, so yeah he's gonna be a bit of a powerhouse, plus it's a pretty awesome spin on Superman's abilities that plays on Clark's powers but in a unique way distinct to Kenan.

[Masterff]

I'm gonna try to address these to the best of my ability

Wallace West: Wallace West isn't based on the TV show version, the TV version was inspired by him (fun fact: the color scheme of Wallace's car when he was first introduced in the show is based on the colors of his New 52 future Flash suit).

I don't think it's any weirder for him to be Kid Flash than someone else picking up the mantle of Aqualad or Robin. At a time where Wally was either nonexistence or a full-on Flash and Impulse wasn't around, it made sense that he filled the Kid Flash role and he bringa his own flavor to the Kid Flash mantle; working best under Christopher Priest but Adam Glass does pretty good too. I like that he's depicted as a gear-head and, when he's written well, he often feels more mature and grounded as Kid Flash than Wally or Bart (as Impulse), and feels more like "the cool kid" than either did. The problem is DC tends to use the character to sporadically and hasn't done anything major with him so, like a lot of new characters, he never feels like he's really having an impact or progressing in a meaningful way.

I do agree with you that he should do something with his visual design to make him stand out more among the speedsters but I don't want him leaving Kid Flash just yet. I want to see him do more things of significance, hit some big milestones, as Kid Flash before he matures out of the role. While I wasn't a big fan of his original silver/red suit, i do think the color scheme could work if they tweaked the hues and suit design a bit, and I think they should go the Arrowverse Mr. Terrific route with his hair; afro in his civvys and cornrows when he's on duty.

The mantle of Robin is passed around normal HUMANS who train.....Kid Flash are Meta-Humans, Speedsters...we now have at least: Jay Garrick,Max Mercury,Bart,Barry,Wally,Wallace,Godspeed,Chinese Flash, Zoom,Black Racer,Reverse Flash....just to many speedsters...and I also think Wallace is the one with the least personality...

Speaking about Milestones etc.: Bart was introduced 1994 and Wallace was introduced 2014, so I feel Bart should be reaching milestones before him..Even he already was Kid Flash,Flash....


I am not a fan of these characters...they become to fast to powerful...

[lemonpeace]

The mantle of Robin is passed around normal HUMANS who train.....Kid Flash are Meta-Humans, Speedsters...we now have at least: Jay Garrick,Max Mercury,Bart,Barry,Wally,Wallace,Godspeed,Chinese Flash, Zoom,Black Racer,Reverse Flash....just to many speedsters...and I also think Wallace is the one with the least personality...

Speaking about Milestones etc.: Bart was introduced 1994 and Wallace was introduced 2014, so I feel Bart should be reaching milestones before him..Even he already was Kid Flash,Flash....


I am not a fan of these characters...they become to fast to powerful...

So you're saying that, the Robin mantle can be passed because that's a title among humans, but kid Flash can't be passed because Kid Flash is a metahuman and there are other speedsters, and you feel Wallace has the least "personality". But also, he shouldn't be reaching milestone's because he's new and Bart should be reaching the milestones instead because he was made in 1994 and not 2014. so, if I am understanding you correctly, is your issue just Wallace's existence? because if you don't like the character existing, well, I don't know. if you don't "understand" the character simply because you don't like that the character exist, then I don't think you really want to get the character. also, I don't understand why weigh the worthiness of the two characters if you think speedsters are too fast and too powerful anyway?

[Masterff]

So you're saying that, the Robin mantle can be passed because that's a title among humans, but kid Flash can't be passed because Kid Flash is a metahuman and there are other speedsters, and you feel Wallace has the least "personality". But also, he shouldn't be reaching milestone's because he's new and Bart should be reaching the milestones instead because he was made in 1994 and not 2014. so, if I am understanding you correctly, is your issue just Wallace's existence? because if you don't like the character existing, well, I don't know. if you don't "understand" the character simply because you don't like that the character exist, then I don't think you really want to get the character. also, I don't understand why weigh the worthiness of the two characters if you think speedsters are too fast and too powerful anyway?

1. Like I said the mantle of the Robin goes from human to human....
The mantle of kid flash goes from speedster to speedster....AND THERE ARE TO MANY OUT THERE NOW!!
Like I said: Barry,Wally,Wallace,Bart,Zoom,Reverse Flash,Godspeed,Black Racer,Jay Garrick,Max....

This are at least 10 speedsters in the current continuity...speedsters should be rare, but now we have to many and even the Flash Family is to crowded with them..
There should only be few of them like in the old times when we had Jay as kind of retired one,Max as Mentor, Wally as Flash and Bart as Impulse/Kid Flash..and the enemies..

2. I feel Bart should be the one who is always a step in front of him, because of being there before him...

3. I read something with Wallace and in my eyes Wally,Barry,Max,Bart and Jay have more personality and are more unique

4. This is a GENERAL new Generation Problem, that the new generation heroes came up and become incredible powerful in just one year or so...

-Conner Kent vs Jonathan Samuel Kent: Conner had to fight for it, grew slowly in his kryptonian powers and got the freeze breath LATE! I think he got the freeze breath AFTER his return to life during the black lanterns fight.
Jonathan Samuel Kent just rushed trough everything, became an adult, member of the Legion etc. etc. etc.

-Bart had his problems and Wally said before Bart joined TT that he thinks that Bart is a nice kid, but he cant be Flash/Kid Flash...

-Conner Kent vs Kenan Kong is similar to Jonathan...

-Emiko Queen vs every other archer..Oliver admitted that Emiko is a better archer than he is...

-Damian Wayne vs Tim/Dick/Jason/Stephanie....
The other ones were gifted, but Damian is already kind of OP...


The 2nd (Dick,Wally,Roy...) and the 3th generation (Tim,Conner,Bart,Cassie....) had to grow into their roles, while the new generation is already (in MANY Cases) already at their mentor level or above..

[lemonpeace]

1. Like I said the mantle of the Robin goes from human to human....
The mantle of kid flash goes from speedster to speedster....AND THERE ARE TO MANY OUT THERE NOW!!
Like I said: Barry,Wally,Wallace,Bart,Zoom,Reverse Flash,Godspeed,Black Racer,Jay Garrick,Max....

This are at least 10 speedsters in the current continuity...speedsters should be rare, but now we have to many and even the Flash Family is to crowded with them..
There should only be few of them like in the old times when we had Jay as kind of retired one,Max as Mentor, Wally as Flash and Bart as Impulse/Kid Flash..and the enemies..

2. I feel Bart should be the one who is always a step in front of him, because of being there before him...

3. I read something with Wallace and in my eyes Wally,Barry,Max,Bart and Jay have more personality and are more unique

4. This is a GENERAL new Generation Problem, that the new generation heroes came up and become incredible powerful in just one year or so...

-Conner Kent vs Jonathan Samuel Kent: Conner had to fight for it, grew slowly in his kryptonian powers and got the freeze breath LATE! I think he got the freeze breath AFTER his return to life during the black lanterns fight.
Jonathan Samuel Kent just rushed trough everything, became an adult, member of the Legion etc. etc. etc.

-Bart had his problems and Wally said before Bart joined TT that he thinks that Bart is a nice kid, but he cant be Flash/Kid Flash...

-Conner Kent vs Kenan Kong is similar to Jonathan...

-Emiko Queen vs every other archer..Oliver admitted that Emiko is a better archer than he is...

-Damian Wayne vs Tim/Dick/Jason/Stephanie....
The other ones were gifted, but Damian is already kind of OP...


The 2nd (Dick,Wally,Roy...) and the 3th generation (Tim,Conner,Bart,Cassie....) had to grow into their roles, while the new generation is already (in MANY Cases) already at their mentor level or above..

you are comparing new characters and saying they're "too OP too fast" to characters that are more powerful and have had more years to develop as characters. I see this argument a lot and I don't understand them, if a new character shows any kind of competence or is stated to have potential people get up in arms that they are suddenly too powerful when no other book ever supports that. it's a fallacious argument, and again, that's not an issue of you not understanding the characters, it's a matter of you just preferring a different character. you rattled off a bunch of speedsters but most of them aren't active right now and/or weren't active when Wallace first started his run as Kid Flash, so there where less speedsters. the "too many x characters" argument is so arbitrary, because who's to say which character "deserve" to be retired and which ones "deserve" to be introduced, and again, isn't a matter of you not understanding these characters but a matter of you preferring a different character. you seem to "understand" these characters fine enough, at which point, this thread serves no purpose because you aren't really saying you don't understand the characters, so much as, you don't like that they exist and you prefer other characters.

[Masterff]

you are comparing new characters and saying they're "too OP too fast" to characters that are more powerful and have had more years to develop as characters. I see this argument a lot and I don't understand them, if a new character shows any kind of competence or is stated to have potential people get up in arms that they are suddenly too powerful when no other book ever supports that. it's a fallacious argument, and again, that's not an issue of you not understanding the characters, it's a matter of you just preferring a different character. you rattled off a bunch of speedsters but most of them aren't active right now and/or weren't active when Wallace first started his run as Kid Flash, so there where less speedsters. the "too many x characters" argument is so arbitrary, because who's to say which character "deserve" to be retired and which ones "deserve" to be introduced, and again, isn't a matter of you not understanding these characters but a matter of you preferring a different character. you seem to "understand" these characters fine enough, at which point, this thread serves no purpose because you aren't really saying you don't understand the characters, so much as, you don't like that they exist and you prefer other characters.

Not really true:

Conner needed YEARS to become so powerful like he is now and Jonathan accomplished it in short time....

Emiko Queen was now introduced and as far as I understood she is already the greatest Archer in DC Universe...Arrowette and Mia Dearden never reached this level...

Its not really that I prefer others...I miss the DEVELOPMENT...Tim,Conner,Mia,Cassie.....grew SLOWLY into their roles, whereas others like Jonathan,Emiko,Damian...rush trough..

[Aahz]

It is just more compelling if you see the characteres grow into their roles, if they allready start as beeing top at everythinkg it is just not that intersting, and it comes really of sometimes as disrespectfull for other characters that heve been around much longer, if they make the new guy better then them right out of the box.

But to be fair even pre flashpoint there were characters that started completly "OP" like Connor Hawke or Cassandra Cain.

[Masterff]

It is just more compelling if you see the characteres grow into their roles, if they allready start as beeing top at everythinkg it is just not that intersting, and it comes really of sometimes as disrespectfull for other characters that heve been around much longer, if they make the new guy better then them right out of the box.

But to be fair even pre flashpoint there were characters that started completly "OP" like Connor Hawke or Cassandra Cain.

To be fair Cassandra Cain has MAJOR flaws: she couldnt speak,as her mind was rewired she lost much of her fighting skills and she is not as intelligent as the other Bat-Family members...and she didnt really steal the Spotlight to others, because Barbara was injured and she replaced her..and Barbara was SMARTER than her, while Cassandra is the better fighter...

Damian Wayne instead for example is seemingly almost perfect...

[NexusTenebrare]

Especially Wallace...He is now the third person in the KID FLASH Costume...and Wally and Bart have a more unique personality than he has.
Like I said if he would have his own colors,a more interesting look...he could be interesting.

Wallace had his own colours for like a second or so.
When he first became a hero he had a sweet silver costume. But then DC decided to give him the ugly recycled yellow Wally West uniform.

[king81992]

To be fair Cassandra Cain has MAJOR flaws: she couldnt speak,as her mind was rewired she lost much of her fighting skills and she is not as intelligent as the other Bat-Family members...and she didnt really steal the Spotlight to others, because Barbara was injured and she replaced her..and Barbara was SMARTER than her, while Cassandra is the better fighter...

Damian Wayne instead for example is seemingly almost perfect...

Damian isn't perfect, personality wise he alienates everyone who works with him(except Dick)and makes dumb decisions in the name of the 'greater good'. The only reason why he seems 'perfect' is because writers try to paint the characters who call him out for his stupidity(Beast Boy,Raven and Wallace) as being in the wrong or have the other characters go along with Damian's nonsense when they should be calling him out.

[Aahz]

To be fair Cassandra Cain has MAJOR flaws: she couldnt speak,as her mind was rewired she lost much of her fighting skills and she is not as intelligent as the other Bat-Family members...

She got her fighting skills back quite fast. She had of course her flaws, but a she was still a completely new character but that could beat up every character who had been around far longer then her.

and she didnt really steal the Spotlight to others

There were iirc several occasion where they showed off her fighting skill at the expense of other characters.

[Digifiend]

The mantle of Robin is passed around normal HUMANS who train.....Kid Flash are Meta-Humans, Speedsters...we now have at least: Jay Garrick,Max Mercury,Bart,Barry,Wally,Wallace,Godspeed,Chinese Flash, Zoom,Black Racer,Reverse Flash....just to many speedsters...and I also think Wallace is the one with the least personality...

Speaking about Milestones etc.: Bart was introduced 1994 and Wallace was introduced 2014, so I feel Bart should be reaching milestones before him..Even he already was Kid Flash,Flash....


I am not a fan of these characters...they become to fast to powerful...

Never heard of Black Racer, and Max hasn't existed since New 52 has he? Neither did Jay until VERY recently (JSA have literally just come back in Justice League).

[Restingvoice]

The Black Racer is Death. The New Gods. Should he even be counted as speedsters? Anyway, he's not a problem of the expanded family since he only appears during a crisis.

[Shamrock Holmes]

It is just more compelling if you see the characteres grow into their roles, if they already start as being top at everything it is just not that intersting, and it comes really of sometimes as disrespectfull for other characters that heve been around much longer, if they make the new guy better then them right out of the box.

So much this.

I've got no problem with them adding characters to the mythology or swapping out the right character - for instance it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to replace Bart, a "man out of his time", with silver costumed Wally II (perhaps as Walter or Ruddy West), but replacing both Bart and OG!Wally (who has been a prominent character in published comics for nearly twice as long as Barry was a step too far IMO.