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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    So question for those who have read it

    spoilers:
    is it possible Imra was erased dramatically in this issue as part of a standard "everything looks bleak before the climax" thing and maybe it will be undone next issue? Hopefully? Or does it look definitively like this was it for her and all hopes of the classic Legion? They really shouldn't have compromised this book's status as an evergreen seller to accommodate the last minute editorial reboot of the Legion that has "temporary" written all over it.

    Also please tell me Wonder Woman defeated Black Adam, or this issue is trash
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    There is zero evidence that Johns had to rewrite Doomsday Clock because Bendis and Didio basically forced him to do so. Geoff Johns doesn't need any external interference to get late with work these days.
    What HiC did to Wally West was clearly not intended by Johns after Johns made him a focal point in the Rebirth issue that set this up.
    It's not really a question of if there was interference at all, but how much. Johns' workload definitely played a part in the delays, but we know how this company operates.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So question for those who have read it

    spoilers:
    is it possible Imra was erased dramatically in this issue as part of a standard "everything looks bleak before the climax" thing and maybe it will be undone next issue? Hopefully? Or does it look definitively like this was it for her and all hopes of the classic Legion? They really shouldn't have compromised this book's status as an evergreen seller to accommodate the last minute editorial reboot of the Legion that has "temporary" written all over it.

    Also please tell me Wonder Woman defeated Black Adam, or this issue is trash
    end of spoilers



    What HiC did to Wally West was clearly not intended by Johns after Johns made him a focal point in the Rebirth issue that set this up.
    It's not really a question of if there was interference at all, but how much. Johns' workload definitely played a part in the delays, but we know how this company operates.
    spoilers:
    It doesn’t look good. Ozymandias tells her “your timeline doesn’t exist anymore” and then Irma goes “Mr. Superman I don’t feel so good” and gets erased. Could she come back? Maybe but it doesn’t look too good right now. Far more likely is that Irma and the classic Legion is gone for the Bendis Legion which will probably fare even worse than the Waid reboot. And WW gets beat up by Black Adam and then the Amazons show up and abduct her back to Paradise Island.
    end of spoilers

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So question for those who have read it

    spoilers:
    is it possible Imra was erased dramatically in this issue as part of a standard "everything looks bleak before the climax" thing and maybe it will be undone next issue? Hopefully? Or does it look definitively like this was it for her and all hopes of the classic Legion? They really shouldn't have compromised this book's status as an evergreen seller to accommodate the last minute editorial reboot of the Legion that has "temporary" written all over it.

    Also please tell me Wonder Woman defeated Black Adam, or this issue is trash
    end of spoilers



    What HiC did to Wally West was clearly not intended by Johns after Johns made him a focal point in the Rebirth issue that set this up.
    It's not really a question of if there was interference at all, but how much. Johns' workload definitely played a part in the delays, but we know how this company operates.
    Even if DC did change the course with Wally West, I fail to see what that has to do with Johns' work or the delays of his current books.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm going to break a general rule I try to adhere to in regards to using the adjective "real". But I'm still angry so I'll use it here.

    Goodbye, real Legion.

    In a way I feel bad for Johns, having to kill the concept he rightfully brought back (to this day the best thing he ever did with the Superman mythos, despite in general not being a good fit for it). On the other hand, this took so inexplicably long its not like I can't understand having to move forward, and forcing things to adapt. Its just unfortunate that one of those adaptations was another bad Superman idea.

    And yeah, I am of the strong opinion these were storyline changes, not originally planned. I'd be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise. I don't give DC the kind of credit necessary to imagine this is largely being executed as planned and is now coming together as intended. That's just not DC even when we're not talking about a book that's taken two years to complete.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-04-2019 at 10:28 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    spoilers:
    It doesn’t look good. Ozymandias tells her “your timeline doesn’t exist anymore” and then Irma goes “Mr. Superman I don’t feel so good” and gets erased. Could she come back? Maybe but it doesn’t look too good right now. Far more likely is that Irma and the classic Legion is gone for the Bendis Legion which will probably fare even worse than the Waid reboot. And WW gets beat up by Black Adam and then the Amazons show up and abduct her back to Paradise Island.
    end of spoilers
    Ugh both of those sound awful. I can't believe we waited for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Even if DC did change the course with Wally West, I fail to see what that has to do with Johns' work or the delays of his current books.
    If he is forced to wipe out any plans he had with Wally due to DC changing course, that is going to contribute to story changes and delays.
    It is by no means the only factor in delays, and I even said Johns' own busy schedule is playing a significant part in it, but I find it extremely unlikely DiDio isn't enforcing last minute things behind the scenes at all.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    If he is forced to wipe out any plans he had with Wally due to DC changing course, that is going to contribute to story changes and delays.
    It is by no means the only factor in delays, and I even said Johns' own busy schedule is playing a significant part in it, but I find it extremely unlikely DiDio isn't enforcing last minute things behind the scenes at all.
    I don't think Wally is/was factoring into Doomsday Clock whatsoever, and I don't think Johns had any plans for him outside of the Rebirth Special. Everything about Doomsday Clock is centered around Watchmen, Superman, the Legion, and JSA.

    Also, given that Shazam is now delayed indefinitely and has absolutely no real involvement to or from the main DCU, this seems to be a problem exclusively with Johns and no one else.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    spoilers:
    * They really did it. Superman - the Man of Tomorrow, the Big Blue Boy Scout, the greatest hero of all time - on-panel with a radioactive neon cock not only in-continuity, but in DC's biggest comic, one that it surely seeks as its primary goal to have become a perennial. Absolutely beautiful.

    * DC should not be publishing a comic where Superman defends an explicitly Trump-occupied White House from a revolutionary brown man.

    * NIBIRU? The hell? Is...is this hinting at some wacko upcoming Justice League development or something? Or did Johns just throw that in like it wasn't even a thing? Or is Lex Luthor reading Powers of X?

    * The Saturn Girl development as deployed is indeed Bad, but I cannot for the life of me see why that makes people think it wasn't always part of the plan. Guys, not that I'm not profoundly enjoying it in spite of itself, but it's not a good book.
    end of spoilers

    At this point, my main remaining question is if the series' conclusion will be ideologically rancid, ideologically dull, or the former attempting to be the latter, and how interesting it'll be along the way.
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  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    I don't think Wally is/was factoring into Doomsday Clock whatsoever, and I don't think Johns had any plans for him outside of the Rebirth Special. Everything about Doomsday Clock is centered around Watchmen, Superman, the Legion, and JSA.

    Also, given that Shazam is now delayed indefinitely and has absolutely no real involvement to or from the main DCU, this seems to be a problem exclusively with Johns and no one else.
    Wally and the Titans were initially hyped as playing a role in uncovering the Watchmen-related mystery, but editorial quickly but the kibosh on that and having the Titans do anything of consequence.

    But as I said, Johns' busy schedule IS a factor, but doubtful it is the only one. Shazam's delays don't prove that his schedule is the only thing holding up Doomdsay Clock as well.

    spoilers:
    He is far from the best fit for Superman, but he is a traditionalist when it comes to the Legion being connected to his childhood. We had all that build up with Imra throughout the series, then we get this soon after the Bendis reboot establishes that they had no prior connection with Clark? please, where there's smoke, there's fire. It's not all one thing, but it seems nave to think it's all on Johns and not DC editorial. They don't do a lot to earn out trust.
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 09-04-2019 at 11:54 AM.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Saw a cover for Leviathan that features the mask within Superman's cape. Thinnest straw-grabbing hope: Leviathan is an alternate Superman and the Retroboot Legion might still have a chance to live via their world! My desperation for an alternate Earth just continue to reach new heights.

    Oh I can dream a dream.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-04-2019 at 12:18 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  10. #40
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    I think it might be possible that the Bendis Legion is the Classic Legion, but it's Classic Legion: The Next Generation. Some of the same characters, some new. Imra's erasure felt like it was always going to be part of the story for me.

    I thought this issue moved things into position at a decent clip. Biggest standout thing to notice was that Ozymandias walks away but leaves a poor kid who can't find his genie, a magic ring and a magic lamp all within a few feet of each other. Bad idea. I don't know what the outcome is going to be with Superman and Doctor Manhattan. I know Superman is going to win because he's Superman and we're in his house. But I also know he fundamentally shouldn't be able to win.

    But I also know that a freaky-deaky fusion of a Genie-Green Lantern-Legionnaire might do the trick.
    Retro315 no more. Anonymity is so 2005.
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  11. #41
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    While I expected a little more in the way of resolution in this issue, I did kind of like what we got. This really felt like Johns statement on what a Watchmen infected DCU would become and how it all is going to be resolved is going to be really really interesting in 4 months when we get issue 12!

    spoilers:
    Ozy basically talking Saturn Girl out of existence was pretty brutal, but I think it really fits with the general message and tone here. We had the Watchmen "realistic" grim and gritty 80's character telling the Silver Age stand in that she was over and done and then turning to the Golden Age guy and saying, don't worry you're useless but you're not going anywhere. I mean, we thought that what they were saying about New 52 was rough.

    The photograph stuff is intersting to me as well. I'm not sure where that's going but I expect Lois is going to put something together and get it to Clark that's going to end up resolving things.

    As for what's going to happen at the end? I think this all predates Man of Steel and No Justice, so I don't expect a big continuity altering event. I don't think the Kents are coming back. And it'll be interesting to see where things are left off with Jor El. Guess we'll find out in December if we're lucky!
    end of spoilers

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    While I expected a little more in the way of resolution in this issue, I did kind of like what we got. This really felt like Johns statement on what a Watchmen infected DCU would become and how it all is going to be resolved is going to be really really interesting in 4 months when we get issue 12!

    spoilers:
    Ozy basically talking Saturn Girl out of existence was pretty brutal, but I think it really fits with the general message and tone here. We had the Watchmen "realistic" grim and gritty 80's character telling the Silver Age stand in that she was over and done and then turning to the Golden Age guy and saying, don't worry you're useless but you're not going anywhere. I mean, we thought that what they were saying about New 52 was rough.

    The photograph stuff is intersting to me as well. I'm not sure where that's going but I expect Lois is going to put something together and get it to Clark that's going to end up resolving things.

    As for what's going to happen at the end? I think this all predates Man of Steel and No Justice, so I don't expect a big continuity altering event. I don't think the Kents are coming back. And it'll be interesting to see where things are left off with Jor El. Guess we'll find out in December if we're lucky!
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Jesus Yoda that’s an absolutely brutal analysis but one I can totally see. I hope you’re right, honestly if that’s how things ended with Supes having to keep trucking on without the Kents I’d be alright with that.
    end of spoilers

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    spoilers:
    It doesn’t look good. Ozymandias tells her “your timeline doesn’t exist anymore” and then Irma goes “Mr. Superman I don’t feel so good” and gets erased. Could she come back? Maybe but it doesn’t look too good right now. Far more likely is that Irma and the classic Legion is gone for the Bendis Legion which will probably fare even worse than the Waid reboot. And WW gets beat up by Black Adam and then the Amazons show up and abduct her back to Paradise Island.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Well Geoff Johns was never that good at writing proper Wonder Woman.
    end of spoilers

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    While I expected a little more in the way of resolution in this issue, I did kind of like what we got. This really felt like Johns statement on what a Watchmen infected DCU would become and how it all is going to be resolved is going to be really really interesting in 4 months when we get issue 12!

    spoilers:
    Ozy basically talking Saturn Girl out of existence was pretty brutal, but I think it really fits with the general message and tone here. We had the Watchmen "realistic" grim and gritty 80's character telling the Silver Age stand in that she was over and done and then turning to the Golden Age guy and saying, don't worry you're useless but you're not going anywhere. I mean, we thought that what they were saying about New 52 was rough.

    The photograph stuff is intersting to me as well. I'm not sure where that's going but I expect Lois is going to put something together and get it to Clark that's going to end up resolving things.

    As for what's going to happen at the end? I think this all predates Man of Steel and No Justice, so I don't expect a big continuity altering event. I don't think the Kents are coming back. And it'll be interesting to see where things are left off with Jor El. Guess we'll find out in December if we're lucky!
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Then if this comes to pass, then we have just wasted time for an event that ended up meaningless.
    end of spoilers

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    After having read it I can honestly say it really does look like there was some larger plan for Saturn Girl that is off the table now. I just can't bring myself to care about mainstream DC continuity anymore. It's obvious that there is no grand plan here. It's just whatever editorial whims Didio and company come up with at the last minute. We're now three years out from Rebirth with very little to show for it. No JSA, No Legion, Wally is a pariah. We still have no idea what Superman's origin is except that apparently the Legion doesn't play a part in it. If this was originally meant to be some sort of lead in to some sort of COIE type event, it doesn't look like it's going to be that now. My guess is, everything is being sidelined in regards to Superman for whatever Bendis wants. And don't get me wrong, I didn't like Johns' origin. But this "throw everything out for the new guy in hopes he has something better lined up" doesn't strike me as the way to run a shop. If there is some sort of Crisis type event in the works, it looks like it will make it's way in through JL rather than this. This looks more like it will be more of a HIC type of thing. A big event with no real payoff in the grand scheme of things.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

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