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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    After having read it I can honestly say it really does look like there was some larger plan for Saturn Girl that is off the table now. I just can't bring myself to care about mainstream DC continuity anymore. It's obvious that there is no grand plan here. It's just whatever editorial whims Didio and company come up with at the last minute. We're now three years out from Rebirth with very little to show for it. No JSA, No Legion, Wally is a pariah. We still have no idea what Superman's origin is except that apparently the Legion doesn't play a part in it. If this was originally meant to be some sort of lead in to some sort of COIE type event, it doesn't look like it's going to be that now. My guess is, everything is being sidelined in regards to Superman for whatever Bendis wants. And don't get me wrong, I didn't like Johns' origin. But this "throw everything out for the new guy in hopes he has something better lined up" doesn't strike me as the way to run a shop. If there is some sort of Crisis type event in the works, it looks like it will make it's way in through JL rather than this. This looks more like it will be more of a HIC type of thing. A big event with no real payoff in the grand scheme of things.
    I felt the same way back in 2016. After Darkseid War wrapped and before Rebirth (with the Watchmen) started. Between DC's Rebirth and Marvel ending ANAD, and bringing in Marvel NOW 2.0. I was done. TPTB are telling high priced fanfiction, rather than actual stories with these decades old IPs. I hold my own canon and what is important to the properties now.

  2. #47
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    After having read it I can honestly say it really does look like there was some larger plan for Saturn Girl that is off the table now. I just can't bring myself to care about mainstream DC continuity anymore. It's obvious that there is no grand plan here. It's just whatever editorial whims Didio and company come up with at the last minute. We're now three years out from Rebirth with very little to show for it. No JSA, No Legion, Wally is a pariah. We still have no idea what Superman's origin is except that apparently the Legion doesn't play a part in it. If this was originally meant to be some sort of lead in to some sort of COIE type event, it doesn't look like it's going to be that now. My guess is, everything is being sidelined in regards to Superman for whatever Bendis wants. And don't get me wrong, I didn't like Johns' origin. But this "throw everything out for the new guy in hopes he has something better lined up" doesn't strike me as the way to run a shop. If there is some sort of Crisis type event in the works, it looks like it will make it's way in through JL rather than this. This looks more like it will be more of a HIC type of thing. A big event with no real payoff in the grand scheme of things.
    I'm pretty much the same. It doesn't feel new, yet it doesn't feel nostalgic. It doesn't feel classic, yet it doesn't feel fresh. Is a large continuity, yet so much of it doesn't even work anymore. Its just there, dull and soulless. I mean, what's the ratio of things uniquely wrong with the way things are and me just being older and exhausted with the rat race? I don't know. I certainly try not to underestimate the latter definitely could be high at work here. But at the same time, things are indeed one big mess.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-04-2019 at 06:35 PM.
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  3. #48
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    spoilers:
    Jesus Yoda thatís an absolutely brutal analysis but one I can totally see. I hope youíre right, honestly if thatís how things ended with Supes having to keep trucking on without the Kents Iíd be alright with that.
    end of spoilers
    Having reread it, it's actually even worse than I thought. spoilers:
    Ozy asks Saturn Girl whether or not Superman even remembers her and when she acknowledges he doesn't that triggers her fading out of existence. Basically, we have the deconstructionist 80's realistic character mocking the Silver Age character for her irrelevance at which point she fades out of existence. I mean, if that's not an intentional commentary on how the Watchmen era treated the Silver Age, something useless that should be forgotten, it's pretty incredible. Looking back that's what Watchment and Dark Knight Returns basically did to Silver Age DC. Said this stuff was useless and should be forgotten. Plus it works with what he says to Johnny Thunder too to the extent that Golden Age DC is kinda look at with some value, narratively speaking, itís not written off entirely by modern writers because it was subversive and had strong social commentary for the time. While the DC Silver Age is largely viewed as childish, sexist, useless stuff. At the same time is though itís still looked at as being inferior to the 80ís age stuff.

    So I still think ultimately Johns is going to make a statement answering Watchmen & Ozyís POV. . I think itís going to be along the lines that the cynical Watchmen POV isnít the way. How far DC lets him go is the question
    end of spoilers

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    While I expected a little more in the way of resolution in this issue, I did kind of like what we got. This really felt like Johns statement on what a Watchmen infected DCU would become and how it all is going to be resolved is going to be really really interesting in 4 months when we get issue 12!

    spoilers:
    Ozy basically talking Saturn Girl out of existence was pretty brutal, but I think it really fits with the general message and tone here. We had the Watchmen "realistic" grim and gritty 80's character telling the Silver Age stand in that she was over and done and then turning to the Golden Age guy and saying, don't worry you're useless but you're not going anywhere. I mean, we thought that what they were saying about New 52 was rough.

    The photograph stuff is intersting to me as well. I'm not sure where that's going but I expect Lois is going to put something together and get it to Clark that's going to end up resolving things.

    As for what's going to happen at the end? I think this all predates Man of Steel and No Justice, so I don't expect a big continuity altering event. I don't think the Kents are coming back. And it'll be interesting to see where things are left off with Jor El. Guess we'll find out in December if we're lucky!
    end of spoilers
    I thought Luthor's cynicism in the face of wondrous chronal freaky deaky timey-wimey stuff was funny. And it's interesting to pair Luthor with Lois here because it's the cynic and the skeptic.

    On that thought about Ozymandias - I mean he's effectively sort of a literal human-character representation of the "Post-Crisis" mise-en-scene, yeah? Like how the Crisis took the blame for the erasure of the Legion in the first place (I mean expressly canonized here with the mentions of the 1986 date, the John Byrne official "here's the NEW timeline" update), here's Ozymandias inhabiting a role that becomes representative of that era of comics. All the Watchmen folks do. They're not just trapped in the grim n gritty, they've been marinating in it and stink like it. Legion fading is literally some textbook "this is Issue # 11, we're building to the climax, how bad can things get, triumph of grim n gritty over the ultimate form of hope". That's why it feels like Saturn Girl fading was an original intention and not an editorial maneuver - the Legion represents Hope and the future and the Watchmen represent bleak hopelessness and what's now ... quite in the past, frankly. And while all the Watchmen characters have an odor of that cynicism, nobody in that universe, not even Doctor Manhattan who is barely human anymore, is as jaded as Ozymandias. I mean Watchmen came out in my lifetime but you know ... I couldn't even read children's books yet. It was a minute ago. Watchmen's whole 80s ethos is LITERALLY as distant and far from me as the Silver Age would have been to Alan Moore when he wrote the damn thing. Relics. Moore was born in '53, which makes him a smidge older than my parents. And that means technically he was born in the Golden Age and came up on Golden Age originals and then was getting older and becoming a rebellious, tantrummy teenager who thought the things he liked as a kid were starting to get "dumb" right when the Silver Age began.

    Seriously, Moore was the exact age I am now when he wrote that treatise on the concept of super-heroes, as filtered through shedding the innocence of the Silver Age (or showing that it was never there in those past generations, but hey, see 'All of our Grandparents' actual lives'). Now I'm that age and I'm like "dear god those writers in the 1980s were immature shock-mongers and throwing big tantrums about their own favorite pulp literature." And I love that meta-narrative. I love the irony. And I love those stories. But they ain't sacrament.

    (Flipping back to Moore coming of age right when comics were getting sillier, I started doing the adolescence bit right in the PEAK NINETIES. So yeah, I think the Steroid Age of Comics is just as childish and rough to think about. I wonder how many deconstructions and treatises I could create about how lame 90s superheroes are.)
    Last edited by K. Jones; 09-04-2019 at 08:03 PM.
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  5. #50
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I just caught the back cover now.

    C8BA6D40-829A-47FC-998B-EB057DF9955B.jpg

    Guess itís not blood.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Having reread it, it's actually even worse than I thought. spoilers:
    Ozy asks Saturn Girl whether or not Superman even remembers her and when she acknowledges he doesn't that triggers her fading out of existence. Basically, we have the deconstructionist 80's realistic character mocking the Silver Age character for her irrelevance at which point she fades out of existence. I mean, if that's not an intentional commentary on how the Watchmen era treated the Silver Age, something useless that should be forgotten, it's pretty incredible. Looking back that's what Watchment and Dark Knight Returns basically did to Silver Age DC. Said this stuff was useless and should be forgotten. Plus it works with what he says to Johnny Thunder too to the extent that Golden Age DC is kinda look at with some value, narratively speaking, it’s not written off entirely by modern writers because it was subversive and had strong social commentary for the time. While the DC Silver Age is largely viewed as childish, sexist, useless stuff. At the same time is though it’s still looked at as being inferior to the 80’s age stuff.

    So I still think ultimately Johns is going to make a statement answering Watchmen & Ozy’s POV. . I think it’s going to be along the lines that the cynical Watchmen POV isn’t the way. How far DC lets him go is the question
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    If it ended the way I think it was originally supposed to, with Clark saving the day and restoring Irma and her bright future then yeah I think it would totally work. I just don’t think that’s going to happen anymore because now Bendis is playing with the Legion. And that’s a really bitter note to end this iteration of Irma on, losing and getting mocked out of existence. I really just don’t see how Johns can end this story on a satisfying note anymore. I guess we’ll see.
    end of spoilers

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    spoilers:
    If it ended the way I think it was originally supposed to, with Clark saving the day and restoring Irma and her bright future then yeah I think it would totally work. I just don’t think that’s going to happen anymore because now Bendis is playing with the Legion. And that’s a really bitter note to end this iteration of Irma on, losing and getting mocked out of existence. I really just don’t see how Johns can end this story on a satisfying note anymore. I guess we’ll see.
    end of spoilers
    Thinking back on all of this, especially what we saw last issue, I don't know that works either. My thinking is that Johns is even kinda refuting his own nostalgia for the Silver Age here. After all, he was one of main driving forces for the New 52. Maybe making the statement that we need to actually move forward not constantly look back (either with rose colored glasses or cynical distaste). Maybe that is where this was all going. It does seem to contradict the message of Rebirth slightly, but Rebirth in retrospect does seem to be about taking the good from any era and moving forward with it.

    This whole thing seems to be read on such a meta level. Going to be interesting to see how it all wraps up.

  8. #53
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Thinking back on all of this, especially what we saw last issue, I don't know that works either. My thinking is that Johns is even kinda refuting his own nostalgia for the Silver Age here. After all, he was one of main driving forces for the New 52. Maybe making the statement that we need to actually move forward not constantly look back (either with rose colored glasses or cynical distaste). Maybe that is where this was all going. It does seem to contradict the message of Rebirth slightly, but Rebirth in retrospect does seem to be about taking the good from any era and moving forward with it.
    I couldn't have been the only one who noticed that Johnny Thunder's "you leave her alone. DON'T YOU TOUCH HER" and Ozzy's "oh quit crying, old man. You're from the past, and the past won't be erased" as a pointed commentary of the fandom with all the subtlety of a brick, right?

    Seeing it play out (and continue to play out) in real time with real world older fans is certainly fascinating to see.
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  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Thinking back on all of this, especially what we saw last issue, I don't know that works either. My thinking is that Johns is even kinda refuting his own nostalgia for the Silver Age here. After all, he was one of main driving forces for the New 52. Maybe making the statement that we need to actually move forward not constantly look back (either with rose colored glasses or cynical distaste). Maybe that is where this was all going. It does seem to contradict the message of Rebirth slightly, but Rebirth in retrospect does seem to be about taking the good from any era and moving forward with it.

    This whole thing seems to be read on such a meta level. Going to be interesting to see how it all wraps up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I couldn't have been the only one who noticed that Johnny Thunder's "you leave her alone. DON'T YOU TOUCH HER" and Ozzy's "oh quit crying, old man. You're from the past, and the past won't be erased" as a pointed commentary of the fandom with all the subtlety of a brick, right?

    Seeing it play out (and continue to play out) in real time with real world older fans is certainly fascinating to see.
    Hmmm that’s an interesting message to take away and you two have certainly given me something to think about. But it feels so hypocritical of Johns of all people to say that when he took shots at Morrison’s Action Comics run in this very story and forced his far inferior origin (which was largely him wanking off to the Donner films) back into canon. But if Yoda is right about the Kents not coming back... hmmm yeah it’s too early to say how effective this story is at portraying the message you two seem to think it’s going for. I guess we’ll see what happens in the end because the ending will make or break it for me.

  10. #55

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    How is bringing back original wally west,superman, jsa,legion, martian manhunter as justice leaguer.. Etc fit into that narrative of not looking back?moving forward was always part of the narrative. How it is done is what was different about rebirth. It was embracing the good, the bad and the ugly of the past and then moving forward. Not, by saying the past did'nt matter. Unless, they have decided now to change that.This imra thing says the past doesn't matter. Look forward people, only forward.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How is bringing back original wally west,superman, jsa,legion, martian manhunter as justice leaguer.. Etc fit into that narrative of not looking back?moving forward was always part of the narrative. How it is done is what was different about rebirth. It was embracing the good, the bad and the ugly of the past and then moving forward. Not, by saying the past did'nt matter. Unless, they have decided now to change that.This imra thing says the past doesn't matter. Look forward people, only forward.
    It’s who it’s coming from that matters. Ozymandais is the personification of that era telling the preceding one it will be forgotten and is irrelevant. That’s a solid criticism of the 80’s mentality that the preceding eras were childish and embarrassing. The ultimate message won’t be that absolute or negative.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    It’s who it’s coming from that matters. Ozymandais is the personification of that era telling the preceding one it will be forgotten and is irrelevant. That’s a solid criticism of the 80’s mentality that the preceding eras were childish and embarrassing. The ultimate message won’t be that absolute or negative.
    So you are saying it is criticising the mentality of the 80's towards the "silverage". Since, ozy himself here is the "bad" guy or antagonist. This meant to make it seem like the ideology of the antagonist won(erasure of imra) . only to reverse it by the climax of the story. Is that it?
    That could work.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    So you are saying it is criticising the mentality of the 80's towards the "silverage". Since, ozy himself here is the "bad" guy or antagonist. This meant to make it seem like the ideology of the antagonist won(erasure of imra) . only to reverse it by the climax of the story. Is that it?
    That could work.
    More or less. I'm not sure anything is going to be reversed. I wouldn't rule it out or something happening - having the Legion ring stay on could be something important.

    But yeah, I read it as a really heavy handed criticism of the fetishization of Watchmen and 80's era "realistic" grim and gritty comics and the disdain that a lot of the Silver Age DC stuff is looked at with. And the fact that it is coming from one of the clear outright villains of the story isn't meant to be taken as a "good" take on things. Ozy's whole POV is wrong here. Plot wise, I doubt Irma is coming back. But I doubt the ultimate message will be to kill off the past completely.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    More or less. I'm not sure anything is going to be reversed. I wouldn't rule it out or something happening - having the Legion ring stay on could be something important.

    But yeah, I read it as a really heavy handed criticism of the fetishization of Watchmen and 80's era "realistic" grim and gritty comics and the disdain that a lot of the Silver Age DC stuff is looked at with. And the fact that it is coming from one of the clear outright villains of the story isn't meant to be taken as a "good" take on things. Ozy's whole POV is wrong here. Plot wise, I doubt Irma is coming back. But I doubt the ultimate message will be to kill off the past completely.
    Oh! Shit.I forgot that the legion ring didn't get erased. Does it mean the meeting with clark foreshadowed will happen? It just feels like a bad place for imra to exit the story.
    Bendis said that his legion will make sense at the end of doomsday clock.What if bendis and John's are trying to do is restore the history back to what seems like a reboot legion (after being brought back at the end of ddc) and clark who doesn't seem to remember it. If the current narrative in superbooks are set in the past. It would making sense that Clark doesn't know legion and vice versa.i know bendis's legion has some racebending and design changes. But, it would be huge if it turns out this way.i mean, who cares if it was black lightning lad hanging out with clark always instead of a white one.
    Maybe this is me being too greedy in wanting clark have his legion, wishing too much. I mean, is it too bad to want clark to have his legion?

  15. #60
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Doomsday Clock 10 presents the revisions in time prior to Doctor Manhattan as facts of this world. There isn't really a negative connotation placed on the act of revision, but rather the active tampering that Manhattan and exploiting the system did.

    spoilers:
    So the act of the literal silver age Saturn Girl (remember, she's from the 30th century) no longer existing isn't inherently presented as bad. It's just how the universe functions. The Superman that stood by the JSA and appeared in the 30s no longer existing isn't treated as inherently bad.

    That said, the way Ozy talked her out of being is presented as bad. And the prospect of there not being a future because of what will happen between Manhattan and Superman is presented as bad because that would mean the end of the metaverse and all of its rebirth.

    If the book ends with the new incarnation Saturn Girl being shown, and the implication that the DCU lives on and endures, then the message is sound and Saturn Girl has the last laugh on Ozy.

    This book was never "old stuff good. New stuff bad."
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by Superlad93; 09-05-2019 at 09:29 AM.
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