Doomsday Clock issue #11 Preview

[manwhohaseverything]

Doomsday Clock 10 presents the revisions in time prior to Doctor Manhattan as facts of this world. There isn't really a negative connotation placed on the act of revision, but rather the active tampering that Manhattan did.

spoilers:

So the act of the literal silver age Saturn Girl (remember, she's from the 30th century) no longer existing isn't inherently presented as bad. It's just how the universe functions. The Superman that stood by the JSA and appeared in the 30s no longer existing isn't treated as inherently bad. That said, the way Ozy talked her out of being is presented as bad. And the prospect of there not being a future because of what will happen between Manhattan and Superman is presented as bad because that would mean the end of the metaverse and all of its rebirth. If the book ends with the new incarnation Saturn Girl being shown, and the implication that the DCU lives on and endures, then the message is sound and Saturn Girl has the last laugh on Ozy. This book was never "old stuff good. New stuff bad."

end of spoilers

But, the thing is that was dr. Manhattan's perspective. Ofcourse, he would view it with apathy. For one, he has no skin in the game. Second, manhattan is the man who became god who left humanity behind. So,it's natural for him to view it with just curiousity. I mean, if that seen was with barry, booster or clark. The perspective would have changed and it would have had a bad connotation. Also, He is touted as one of antagonist or at least the challenge the protagonists needs to overcome.

[Superlad93]

But, the thing is that was dr. Manhattan's perspective. Ofcourse, he would view it with apathy. For one, he has no skin in the game. Second, manhattan is the man who became god who left humanity behind. So,it's natural for him to view it with just curiousity. I mean, if that seen was with barry, booster or clark. The perspective would have changed and it would have had a bad connotation. Also, He is touted as one of antagonist or at least the challenge the protagonists needs to overcome.

But you would need to look at it from an outside and objective prospective to understand that the revisions are an aspect of the world even when outside forces act on it. Moreover, once he enters the "game", so to speak, and he creates the revisions by specifically exploiting the system he notices the natural push back from the DCU. He notices its "immune system." The story frames Manhattans revisions as something totally different from the ones that made Golden age Superman stop existing and become Silver age Superman, and then later become the 80s Superman. So he come to the conclusion that the DCU has became the villain of this world because of how he's been exploiting it.

And what he's exploring is, again, framed as a natural aspect of the Universe. The Universe seems disguised to undergo revision and rebirth.

Manhattan ending that cycle is the threat here. It is objectively painted as bad. What happened to Saturn Girl, while sad in the way it happened, isn't something that's bad as far as the DCU goes.

[Superlad93]

If we continue on using Doctor Manhattan's idea of the metaverse being an organism, then the cycles of change and rebirth can be compared to cell death and rebirth. No matter who you are on Earth, you don't have the same cells that you did when you were 5 years old. They die and a new version of them come into their place. They have the same function, but they're not the the old ones. This is something that happens for a number of reasons, like outside trauma or just simple the march of time. And they are rebuilt like a scab. Different but still the same being.

Manhattan is different because he's tampering could lead to the death of the whole organism. But the ability of the organism to rejuvenate itself is natural.

[Yoda]

But you would need to look at it from an outside and objective prospective to understand that the revisions are an aspect of the world even when outside forces act on it. Moreover, once he enters the "game", so to speak, and he creates the revisions by specifically exploiting the system he notices the natural push back from the DCU. He notices its "immune system." The story frames Manhattans revisions as something totally different from the ones that made Golden age Superman stop existing and become Silver age Superman, and then later become the 80s Superman. So he come to the conclusion that the DCU has became the villain of this world because of how he's been exploiting it.

And what he's exploring is, again, framed as a natural aspect of the Universe. The Universe seems disguised to undergo revision and rebirth.

This is a really interesting way to look at it. So do you think Johns is taking view of the generational shifts between the Golden, Silver, and Modern age were natural and needed evolutions or "Rebirths", while having some criticism of the way intervening shifts were carried out? It seems Ozy's comments along with the obvious set up of a Silver, Golden, and 80's deconstructionist character is subtle as a brick. So in that context do you think the New 52 is presented as an "unnatural" evolution - forced by an external force (With Manhattan as another stand in for the 80's realism & cynicism). And it seems he at least has some criticism of the deconstructionist POV that Watchmen embodies or the way it's often touted as supplanting the more hopeful or earnest way of telling stories.

Manhattan ending that cycle is the threat here. It is objectively painted as bad. What happened to Saturn Girl, while sad in the way it happened, isn't something that's bad as far as the DCU goes.

Definitely. I think the "Rebirth" we're going to see is settling of this DCU as a solidified timeline. I'm going to be shocked if we don't get some big spread with Snyder's JSA in the 1940's and Bendis' new Legion. There's going to be acknowledgement of the change, but the change is going to be the hope for more stories and complete the "Rebirth" of the DCU.

Even look at the back cover, Superman's cape covering the Dooms Day Clock. The back cover of 12 is not going to be the scary clock ticking to midnight, it's going to be Superman's cape settling over it. Hope wining out over pessimistic thought that we've been ticking towards destruction.

[manwhohaseverything]

But you would need to look at it from an outside and objective prospective to understand that the revisions are an aspect of the world even when outside forces act on it. Moreover, once he enters the "game", so to speak, and he creates the revisions by specifically exploiting the system he notices the natural push back from the DCU. He notices its "immune system." The story frames Manhattans revisions as something totally different from the ones that made Golden age Superman stop existing and become Silver age Superman, and then later become the 80s Superman. So he come to the conclusion that the DCU has became the villain of this world because of how he's been exploiting it.

And what he's exploring is, again, framed as a natural aspect of the Universe. The Universe seems disguised to undergo revision and rebirth.

Manhattan ending that cycle is the threat here. It is objectively painted as bad. What happened to Saturn Girl, while sad in the way it happened, isn't something that's bad as far as the DCU goes.

But, we know that manhattan is behind the legion dissappearing.



So, as you said this change also has bad connotation.in the last panels you clearly see clark fading because alan scott's lantern was moved out of the way by manhattan.

[Superlad93]

This is a really interesting way to look at it. So do you think Johns is taking view of the generational shifts between the Golden, Silver, and Modern age were natural and needed evolutions or "Rebirths", while having some criticism of the way intervening shifts were carried out?

Well, it's stated in the text that at least some of those shifts were because of "outside forces" too. But the difference here is the possibility to lead to the end of the cycle. It's the threat of genuine harm to the continued existence of the whole.

So in that context do you think the New 52 is presented as an "unnatural" evolution - forced by an external force (With Manhattan as another stand in for the 80's realism & cynicism).

I don't think the implication here is that it's any more unnatural than whichever other one he described as having also been put into motion by "outside forces." But the text does call it out as being less hopeful than the previous incarnations, and the DCU "organism" has an inherent hope that must always express itself eventfully. It's stated that it was the act of interfering with and diminishing that hope with the specifics of the New 52 changes that made the "immune system" notice and attack.

I'm going to be shocked if we don't get some big spread with Snyder's JSA in the 1940's and Bendis' new Legion. There's going to be acknowledgement of the change, but the change is going to be the hope for more stories and complete the "Rebirth" of the DCU.

Exactly. I'd be shocked if some form of this weren't the idea. So long as the organism doesn't end, and it gets to express its inherent hope (in this case personified by the JSA and the Legion.) then it's ok.

[Superlad93]

But, we know that manhattan is behind the legion dissappearing. So, as you said this change also has bad connotation.in the last panels you clearly see clark fading because alan scott's lantern was moved out of the way by manhattan.

It's the fact that he removed them without giving them a place to be reborn. He just removed them outright.

But the general act of those versions of them going away isn't presented as a bad thing so long as they have a new version of them that embodies their hope waiting.

[manwhohaseverything]

It's the fact that he removed them without giving them a place to be reborn. He just removed them outright.

But the general act of those versions of them going away isn't presented as a bad thing so long as they have a new version of them that embodies their hope waiting.

But, in today's issue when imra is giving her "you will never win.superman will stop you" speech to ozy. Ozy said, "her timeline had already gone because superman doesn't remember her" . That kicked in the butterfly effect and started dissolving her. But, her ring didn't fade.Today's, chapter definitely portrayed ozy as the "bad" guy and imra as "good" guy.

Problem, people have is not that imra got erased but how she got erased. Generally, there is a feeling that her role got cut. There was implications that the moment she meets clark she will realise clark doesn't remember her and she is will be gone ala butterfly effect. But, that meeting was foreshadowed. I thought Imra would fade meeting clark maybe snapping him out of his rage against manhattan using her link as a last act of heroism. Maybe even share her memories of their childhood with clark. That didn't happen, i wonder who is going to take her role. Maybe lois or maybe he calms down himself.

I am starting to get hopeful that at the end of ddc the old legion that faded away will return as Bendis's legion. It will be revealed that Bendis's legion is old legion. Maybe their entire history will be restored. Clark will be given back his memories with them. We'll get a happy ending-sorta. Well, atleast i wish we do.

[Sacred Knight]

I really don't think its in the cards. I wish it was, but I think its just more what we're seeing is what we're getting. It very well could be that Doomsday Clock could end on a "happy" note of Imra returning as part of Bendis' Legion, but I highly doubt it will include any nuance of actually being the old Legion in the sense that there really will be a history with Superman there to remember.

[manwhohaseverything]

I really don't think its in the cards. I wish it was, but I think its just more what we're seeing is what we're getting. It very well could be that Doomsday Clock could end on a "happy" note of Imra returning as part of Bendis' Legion, but I highly doubt it will include any nuance of actually being the old Legion in the sense that there really will be a history with Superman there to remember.

Cutting the story short like this just doesn't feel right. Clark is the focal point of Imra's quest not jon or anyone else. So, it wouldn't make sense to have jon's legion with out the history to return from "the fade" in this book. I mean, jon isn't even in the book. It would be more impactful if they returned from "the fade" reaching out to clark.

[Superlad93]

Cutting the story short like this just doesn't feel right. Clark is the focal point of Imra's quest not jon or anyone else. So, it wouldn't make sense to have jon's legion with out the history to return from "the fade" in this book. I mean, jon isn't even in the book. It would be more impactful if they returned from "the fade" reaching out to clark.

The Legion's existence in and of itself is the resolution of that plot thread. Clark being part of it isn't required. It's similar to how Superman is taken out of the JSA's time period and the DCU as a whole is fine with it.

The resolution is saying that he DCU has a future at all.

[Yoda]

This Irma was an echo of a timeline that was erased 35 years ago. She was the Silver Age Legion. Her purpose seems to have always been to fail. This was never “her” Superman. The Metaverse creating Jon’s Legion to fill that void. I think Superlad is right on the money with this. The Metaverse reacts and adjusts and the new Legion is going to address that. Manhattan’s manipulation prevented that from happening, but it was never her Legion that was supposed to come back.

[manwhohaseverything]

The Legion's existence in and of itself is the resolution of that plot thread. Clark being part of it isn't required. It's similar to how Superman is taken out of the JSA's time period and the DCU as a whole is fine with it.

The resolution is saying that he DCU has a future at all.

Well, that would Mean the antagonists ozy had won like in watchmen. This supposed to be the antithesis of that. I do believe like legion will come back in this book. It might not be Clark's but the return of a legion team with imra is required. That is just my belief.
And this isn't like clark being taken out of jsa. Which is caused by the event and beings of the metaverse. Manhattan is the reason legion and clark past-future faded. Which is termed bad by the story by your account.
Bendis even said that it his legion will make sense by the end of doomsday clock.

[manwhohaseverything]

This Irma was an echo of a timeline that was erased 35 years ago. She was the Silver Age Legion. Her purpose seems to have always been to fail. This was never “her” Superman. The Metaverse creating Jon’s Legion to fill that void. I think Superlad is right on the money with this. The Metaverse reacts and adjusts and the new Legion is going to address that. Manhattan’s manipulation prevented that from happening, but it was never her Legion that was supposed to come back.

If this clark wasn't her clark, This barry wasn't wally's barry either untill the light bolt struck. I believe there is a chance of the same happening here. So i am holding out hope. I know i will probably be proven wrong. But, what the heck! I wouldn't till the story ends.
Her failing would be too cynical an ending for me. This narrative was set to restore things, not to let it fade. You yourself have said the ozy and imra convo was about 80's outlook of silverage. I believe it will be criticised, not encouraged. Even the back cover turnes in to superman cape. So, i am still optimistic.

[manwhohaseverything]

Sorry about that double post