Bruce Wayne to hand the cowl to a black man?

[K. Jones]

This is a weird story to break, not because of the relevance or context societally, or anything, but probably just because canonically over the last ten years or so we've gotten nothing but "Batman dies somebody new takes over" stories. But it's really all about the execution.

Like, I'll check it out based on the execution. Totally. Don't even mind.

I also know that you know, Good Old Bruce Wayne Batman isn't going anywhere because he keeps the lights on and the water coolers running at DC's California offices and Warner Brothers. But, to use a probably hackneyed as soon as I say it phrase, I don't mind if they pull a Mile Morales here and give us Another Batman.

[Rac7d*]

This is a weird story to break, not because of the relevance or context societally, or anything, but probably just because canonically over the last ten years or so we've gotten nothing but "Batman dies somebody new takes over" stories. But it's really all about the execution.

Like, I'll check it out based on the execution. Totally. Don't even mind.

I also know that you know, Good Old Bruce Wayne Batman isn't going anywhere because he keeps the lights on and the water coolers running at DC's California offices and Warner Brothers. But, to use a probably hackneyed as soon as I say it phrase, I don't mind if they pull a Mile Morales here and give us Another Batman.

Right its always a temp situation when your son is the heir to the elixr of life

[skyvolt2000]

Hardly a minority. People might have been indifferent to him at first but Snyder constantly trying to push the guy made more and more people resent his character. It's cooled off since because he's not being pushed as much anymore and is just...there.

EVIDENCE PLEASE. SERIOUSLY.

He was BARELY seen in Batman. He did NOT appear in the book in 2018. He has been in it ONCE (as a flashback in 2019). 12 appearances total.
He was in ONE page of a Batman annual.
He was in ONE arc and 2 backups in All Star Batman
He was ONE issue of Metal
He had a 3 issue mini.
He was fridge in Detective Comics and is no in Outsiders.

You add up all his panel time since Rebirth started and you MIGHT get two trades worth of stuff.

People seem to resent "pushing" a character if they don't like the character, but resent not "promoting" the character if they do like them.

DEFINE pushing. To some faction just him BEING in a book is offensive and shoving him in folks faces.


Funny this became a Duke Thomas bashing thread when the rumor made it clear he wasn't going to be Batman.

[Tzigone]

DEFINE pushing. To some faction just him BEING in a book is offensive and shoving him in folks faces.

I thought I was clear in my post (using "pushing" one time and "promoting" the other) that pushing is in the eye of the beholder and usually based on whether the reader likes the character.

Liking a new character, I'd say depends somewhat on whether a character they already like is potentially losing page time to the newbie. For instance, if you like Damian and feel like Duke was brought in to replace him, you're more likely to have a negative reaction to him even existing or yes, being in the book. If you think Tim isn't in the Batman book enough, and then Duke appears, you're likely to think this newbie is taking up page space that could have been used on Tim. If you like Cass and are extremely peeved she lost her family in the reboot (or hadn't appeared yet), then you might resent new characters getting a relationship with the family while she's left out in the cold. Etc. etc.

Not saying it's fair to dislike a character just for "taking another character's place", but it is entirely normal, and is definitely something that discussed when characters leave tv shows and get replaced, and so on.

He was BARELY seen in Batman. He did NOT appear in the book in 2018. He has been in it ONCE (as a flashback in 2019). 12 appearances total.

But I don't think talking about 2019 when they said he was being pushed. Indeed, by then he's kinda moved on to not getting much attention. I they'd have been referring to 2015-2016, when he was new.

[lemonpeace]

I think you're misconstruing not caring for him with hating. This may be rough to hear for some folks, but the majority of the Bat "family" are nobodies that could fall into permanent limbo and nothing of majority would be lost. Bruce, Dick, Babs are the important ones.

Hell, I think the books would actually increase in quality with Gotham and Batman lore being less congested.

i'm confused, you presented it like is antithetical to their point, but you kinda just concurred. if they are "nobodies" that people just don't care for, then is that not people just not caring or being neutral? which is what they were saying?

I mean, claiming Barbara is more important than Alfred or Jim Gordon or Jason Todd or Damian should already kinda point to the subjectiveness of who's "important" because honestly, Batgirl isn't even top 5 in a lot of people's book for who is "essential" to batman's mythos. most times people say its Batman, Robin, Dick, Alfred, and Jim, maybe batgirl as a 6th man if they forget Jim. I'm just saying, the line for which character deserves their story being told is arbitrary, that doesn't (or shouldn't) change just because Batman is involved. I fact, if DC didn't spend so much time trying to "capitalize" on Batman (more so relying at this point) and spent more energy actual developing, using actual good stories from competent creators and editors, exploring their full catalog of characters, there would be less of these kind of extended characters and the ones that are there would've matured out of Batman's orbit long time ago.

[Godlike13]

Your mixing Bat family with supporting cast members. Bruce, Dick, Babs created the foundation of the idea behind the Bat Family. They established the archetype that most in the Bat family stem from, in some form or another, to this day. And whats more they are usually the strongest sellers within the Bat family.

[Celgress]

Of course. Nobody likes Duke. I must be dreaming this thread.

I for one don't hate Duke, rather I find him to be a boring non-entity. There is literally nothing interesting or unique about him, IMO. He's simply sidekick number one million five hundred thousand seven.

[Panfoot]

This can't possibly be a Bendis thing, it would just be so incredibly dumb. Forget opinions on whether he's great or a hack, the optics off not only getting another white guy to write a big minority character, but the white guy who has already done that twice(and not that long ago!) is just...yikes. I don't trust anyone running DC at the moment to be able to pull something like this off, no matter what character ends up being picked.

[Frontier]

This can't possibly be a Bendis thing, it would just be so incredibly dumb. Forget opinions on whether he's great or a hack, the optics off not only getting another white guy to write a big minority character, but the white guy who has already done that twice(and not that long ago!) is just...yikes. I don't trust anyone running DC at the moment to be able to pull something like this off, no matter what character ends up being picked.

Maybe Bendis comes up with the idea but someone like Bryan Hill writes it?

Although if it was Bendis' idea, he's totally writing it .

Your mixing Bat family with supporting cast members. Bruce, Dick, Babs created the foundation of the idea behind the Bat Family. They established the archetype that most in the Bat family stem from, in some form or another, to this day. And whats more they are usually the strongest sellers within the Bat family.

Yeah, for better or worse Batman, Robin, and Batgirl (sometimes with Nightwing) are usually viewed as the Core Batfamily and are the ones who get the most promotion/use.

Especially in outside media.

[lemonpeace]

Your mixing Bat family with supporting cast members. Bruce, Dick, Babs created the foundation of the idea behind the Bat Family. They established the archetype that most in the Bat family stem from, in some form or another, to this day. And whats more they are usually the strongest sellers within the Bat family.

I can see that but, again, Batgirl hasn't been essential to the idea of the batfamily or the bat mythos as a whole in a long time. most people put Bruce and the other batboys as being more essential to batman's mythos, and consolidating it further to just the bare bones characters that are essential to Batman's story and you get the people pointing to the "supporting cast" character before Barbara, but regardless that's beside the point. that was an illustration, the point is that the lines for who's story is essential to be told are arbitrary, the bigger issue isn't these "satellite" characters (for lack of a better term) themselves but more so that DC lacks the ability or willingness to introduce and subsequently utilize these characters in such a way that they can exist independent of Batman because they are over-reliant on the Bat-brand. They basically wanna use Batman like the FF back in the day, except they aren't actually launching characters, just introducing them to eventually be regulated to cast members because they don't know what to do with them. they think that just putting a character, no matter what idea that goes into them, next to batman is enough to make the character function and grow. sure the cermudgen-y "fanboy" types will always complain about something new, that's fine, but if a character is used effectively and done so growing tangibly distinct, over time those voices matter less because all that'll matter is how well a particular character was done. if they were better that that, this issue of who is or isn't "considered Batfamily (or even the term batfamily in it's acquired context) would be a non-issue.

[K. Jones]

I for one don't hate Duke, rather I find him to be a boring non-entity. There is literally nothing interesting or unique about him, IMO. He's simply sidekick number one million five hundred thousand seven.

I like Duke. I think it's strange that he ended up being like a weird Multiverse/Dark Multiverse basically magical character with vaguely defined powers but I do prefer it to "just another themed vigilante" to some degree and agree that he fits well with the Outsiders. I loved We Are Robin, though, conceptually and in execution for the most part. But it's cool to have a kid who kind of came into the fam by way of having a kind of a Robin Movement separate from the core Batman-approved venues.

I definitely get why people don't take to Duke and Harper. But frankly I don't think it's because there's anything inherently wrong with their character tropes (which are virtually identical, basically, rebellious kids who insist on helping Batman, who have Chosen One tropes built into their backstories that Batman mighta probably knew a little something about before they ever learn their own secret origins because SECRETS.) Anyway I just think the problem is in Snyder's execution of characters like that. If you're going to bring in a new character that's meant to be a headliner you should have a fully formed idea of where they're going to be and who they're going to be pretty quick. I think Snyder just kept peppering them into stories hoping that the storylines he wanted to tell would dictate what sorts of characters they should end up being, but he second-guessed himself like twelve times along the way. Other Batman stories have done it better, with more focus. But I can't fault the characters themselves. Weird introductions that don't give characters the build-up, agency or stories they deserve to be introduced with, happen all the time.

Will we ever get a revised "Duke Thomas: Year One" that plays the whole thing better? Not terribly likely. So C-List intros like this often only get one shot to make a first impression. But that doesn't mean there won't be rad Signal stories in the meantime.

[Frontier]

I can see that but, again, Batgirl hasn't been essential to the idea of the batfamily or the bat mythos as a whole in a long time. most people put Bruce and the other batboys as being more essential to batman's mythos, and consolidating it further to just the bare bones characters that are essential to Batman's story and you get the people pointing to the "supporting cast" character before Barbara, but regardless that's beside the point. that was an illustration, the point is that the lines for who's story is essential to be told are arbitrary, the bigger issue isn't these "satellite" characters (for lack of a better term) themselves but more so that DC lacks the ability or willingness to introduce and subsequently utilize these characters in such a way that they can exist independent of Batman because they are over-reliant on the Bat-brand. They basically wanna use Batman like the FF back in the day, except they aren't actually launching characters, just introducing them to eventually be regulated to cast members because they don't know what to do with them. they think that just putting a character, no matter what idea that goes into them, next to batman is enough to make the character function and grow. sure the cermudgen-y "fanboy" types will always complain about something new, that's fine, but if a character is used effectively and done so growing tangibly distinct, over time those voices matter less because all that'll matter is how well a particular character was done. if they were better that that, this issue of who is or isn't "considered Batfamily (or even the term batfamily in it's acquired context) would be a non-issue.

I think when most people think of the Batfamily, they think of Batgirl. She's the one who basically originated the idea of a home-grown vigilante and sidekick who didn't have to be one of Bruce's "boys" and there's the obvious Commissioner Gordon connection.

I think Batgirl isn't as synonymous as Robin, but she's pretty darn close.

I think it's a problem within the genre of major franchises trying to create new spinoff/original characters and then not knowing what to do with them when they don't immediately take off. Sometimes they don't even know what to do with characters who actually have taken off. I don't think it's an issue of being associated with Batman beyond the fact that it's always been a crowded field of various characters.

[lemonpeace]

I think when most people think of the Batfamily, they think of Batgirl. She's the one who basically originated the idea of a home-grown vigilante and sidekick who didn't have to be one of Bruce's "boys" and there's the obvious Commissioner Gordon connection.

I think Batgirl isn't as synonymous as Robin, but she's pretty darn close.

I think it's a problem within the genre of major franchises trying to create new spinoff/original characters and then not knowing what to do with them when they don't immediately take off. Sometimes they don't even know what to do with characters who actually have taken off. I don't think it's an issue of being associated with Batman beyond the fact that it's always been a crowded field of various characters.

i wouldn't even say it's necessarily an issue of being associated with Batman, more so the characters end up becoming too dependant on Batman as the means to justify their existence. characters like Duke, Harper, Batwing, Azrael, etc often are relagated to these positions where they mainly only exist to be next to batman despite having the potential to offer something to worth reading as their own characters. Duke is a perfect example of this, when digging into the character, everything about his character for a majority of his existence is supposed to differentiate him from Batman and the wider Bat-membership but he's largely treated as yet another bat-roadie, from his suit designs to his appearances in books since gaining his hero identity.

on topic, black batman could be cool or could be nothing, but either way wasn't worth the report (if they actually are doing it) this early out.

[KangMiRae]

i'm confused, you presented it like is antithetical to their point, but you kinda just concurred. if they are "nobodies" that people just don't care for, then is that not people just not caring or being neutral? which is what they were saying?

I mean, claiming Barbara is more important than Alfred or Jim Gordon or Jason Todd or Damian should already kinda point to the subjectiveness of who's "important" because honestly, Batgirl isn't even top 5 in a lot of people's book for who is "essential" to batman's mythos. most times people say its Batman, Robin, Dick, Alfred, and Jim, maybe batgirl as a 6th man if they forget Jim. I'm just saying, the line for which character deserves their story being told is arbitrary, that doesn't (or shouldn't) change just because Batman is involved. I fact, if DC didn't spend so much time trying to "capitalize" on Batman (more so relying at this point) and spent more energy actual developing, using actual good stories from competent creators and editors, exploring their full catalog of characters, there would be less of these kind of extended characters and the ones that are there would've matured out of Batman's orbit long time ago.

Errr, I don't consider Alfred or Jim Gordon to be part of the Bat Family, like ever. And Jason became worthless once he was brought back to life. He's the Gwen Stacy of Batman in my eyes. I never liked Damian, but sure if you want to claim Babs is beneath him (and I'm pretty confident tons of people would argue against this) then I can call that subjectiveness and allow it.

[Godlike13]

I think it’s fairer to say they only exist because they are next to Batman, and what Batman’s character gets from it in return has become very little. Their presence rarely enrich his stories or support his character anymore. He mostly just supports theirs, and is used to support and prop them. Often at Batman’s expense.
Going back to Batgirl, while Batgirl might be draped in his motif, Batman himself doesn’t need to be attached at her hip or constantly shown to be saved by her for them to move her. They don’t need to entice readers in with the promise of Batman and Robin only to give them a piss poor story really about fringe character A and fringe character B that probably wouldn’t move otherwise.
And when a Bat family character is brought in to actually support Batman’s narrative it’s characters like Babs and Dick who literally have to take the bullet, and then have to somehow manage to try and continue to survive after being left in shambles, and tossed to seemingly the worst creators they can find, off in some isolated corner.