House of x [4] : It will be done [spoilers]

[Jness]

To explain in your terms why I would be very disappointed if HOX is revealed to be the continuity we've been reading since 1963, and the Lives of Moira X is just a retcon framing device which injects hidden intention into past stories, it is unbelievable to me that the three characters with knowledge of the past nine lives would behave as they have done (Xavier since he met Moira before forming the X Men circa 1963, and Magneto since the two of them visited him on Island M circa 1981). All the battles and one-on-one conversations and internal monologues and Xavier and Magneto getting painfully killed and reborn several times --not to mention Moira getting married to Joseph MacTaggert, being raped by him to give birth to Proteus, when she, at 600 or 1500 years old (depending on whether you think Moira was present during X^3), having been Mother Akkaba to Apoc's Horsemen and a trained RAF assassin, would have the confidence, knowledge and skill-set of Batman-- all of those messy stories involving the three of them would have to have been play-acted!

P/s: it would also mean that Destiny's comment, about her having 11 lives if she makes the right decision in the end, meaningless if what we call 616(1963) is her 10th life from which she cannot be reborn without rebooting the whole universe.

You are making a big assumption with the last statement.

What if “11, if you make the right choice” is Moira becoming Destiny?

[Jness]

Your question isn’t as provocative as you seem to hope it is. You’re not even the first one to say it. You’re more likely to get questioned for using the serious word “lynching” for something so trivial.
.

One hopes the group here is not *that* overly reactive.

[jamesslow]

You are making a big assumption with the last statement.

What if “11, if you make the right choice” is Moira becoming Destiny?

LOL i can't see that happening but if it does, then you called it here first - there's support in Moira's name of course - its Greek root means "Destiny"

[Andru]

They revealed that the PhoeniX 5 was part of the "lost decade" in Life 5 though... Seems to me that was a diss from Hickman. As for how Mutants recovered from Decimation in a Phoenix 5 less universe? Well, Phoenix came and there was no drama as XMEN/Avengers acted like adults and didn't fight. Rachel would've trained Hope too.

I think you're assuming. They never said that Rosenberg/Age of Man took place in the Apocalypse/Life 10. In Life 5, they revealed everything after the Phoenix 5 was part of the "lost decade" so that probably includes Rosenberg too (my own assumption). Hickman had also made passive disses at recent writers, so doubt he wants to include much recent work.

A version of the Phoenix 5 occurred during life 4...as did a version of the original team, as well as the ANAD team.

Many of the stories we have read most likely happened multiple times throughout Moira's different lives albeit a few tweaks here and there.

Am I assuming? I feel like people are really stretching how some of these story elements are working.

[jamesslow]

I'm probably going to get lynched for this question, but does it really matter which life of Moira's this is?

If so why? Genuinely asking. So amongst the lynching I'd actually like a "real" answer.

Think what Hickman has done was rather clever- splitting the Moria's lives and thus encompassing all continuity. I personally don't need to know when it happened...satisfied with just knowing that it did happen (though even this isn't really a big deal).

**Disclaimer - this is coming from someone who gave up trying to connect comic continuity many years ago and takes each volume of a comic as a standalone. Any reference to past continuity in the volume will be considered part of it. If not, so be it. I do not allow such to interfere with my enjoyment of the book.**

I am following only a handful of comics so I'm 100% in your camp of seeing each chapter of any comic as standalone. The gentle sort of retconning whereby writers just ignore past storylines which they dislike, is to me an ideal way of dealing with troublesome continuity. In fact I would prefer if comics became like movies and, with each reboot for a new generation, start the characters afresh and tell new stories in which the characters can age, grow, evolve and each death is permanent (until the next wholesale reboot about 5-10 years down the line).

IMO Hickman would be doing Marvel Comics a favour if he got the greenlight to make it canon that each time Moira dies, the universe continues without her, and there are 9 parallel realities floating out there (10, if her last go-around is our 1963 timeline). Then we'd have to rename Earth 616 to Earth XI...

[ExodusCloak]

A version of the Phoenix 5 occurred during life 4...as did a version of the original team, as well as the ANAD team.

Many of the stories we have read most likely happened multiple times throughout Moira's different lives albeit a few tweaks here and there.

Am I assuming? I feel like people are really stretching how some of these story elements are working.

This. Xavier went bald in all of Moiras lives. In the Fantastic four it says time is organic. It finds a way of adapting to trying to keep the timestream the same. Unless there's large enough impact made. And the large enough impact required is 4 people

[Andru]

Thanks. That would indeed be an interesting "end".

That said, according to Hickman's story the Pheonix 5 happened in Moira's 4 life (I think) which included the flooding of Wakanda, which happened in the "regular 616.

So can/does that work?

This is part of why I don't pay tto much attention to continuity LOL (BUT very open to some form of logical explanation).

That was probably just another iteration of the Phoenix 5. It's likely some things happened the same way or in a similar fashion from life to life.

I probably sound like a broken record at this point...And maybe I am wrong, which I will be the first to admit, but this damn Phoenix 5 thing is driving me bonkers haha.

They do in fact show the Phoenix 5 happened during Moira's 4th life. However, in this life, Moira was married to Xavier and stood by him throughout his life until they were both killed by Sentinels.

That fact should prove that this is not the version of AVX we know (which occurred during Moira's tenth life) as Moira was never involved (she was "dead") and Xavier dies at the end of the story.

[JKtheMac]

I guess that's where the break down in how people think comes in. For me it's more simple to think the eras of x-men happened during different time periods. like volume 1 of uncanny went past morrison run and moira was included in that entire era because she sporadically appeared but then in like after uncanny was rebooted lets say extinction team felt so different because to us it happened linerally but was a different life in the Mu where Moira didn't interfer and we got utopia which also failed. But then like everyone else i'm just speculating on what makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense though that in this life where Moira said lets break all the rules they would be doing the same exact thing they did throughout marvel history until they got to this one moment. But that's just me.

Again, your objections to the idea she would do exactly the same thing is not what anyone is suggesting. She has been off panel for most of X-Men continuity. She has been manipulating things differently behind the scenes to set up this current situation.

This is an all or nothing power play.

The theory I am presenting is that she keeps things looking the same as a previous life otherwise known as X-Men continuity and where necessary steer the main events back to that course where they get off track, but otherwise slowly stack the deck so that when the world gets to the tipping point that would inevitably lead to disaster play the trump cards and confound and disrupt those that would threaten her plan.

As I said before, this wouldn't technically be necessary. Hickman could just be saying life ten is continuity as we know it and Moira's behind the scenes manipulation is just a normal retcon. Either way something significantly different and within her area of expertise as a geneticist has changed since the last issue of Uncanny. This is clearly something to do with Moira breaking the rules. We don't need to look elsewhere for an explanation.

Cosying up to Charles and Erik and possibly Apocalypse and or Sinister, is breaking all the rules. Setting up a potential resurrection method is breaking the rules. Manipulating a cold war situation to potentially provoke an early show down with Sentinel evolution is breaking the rules.

[drupgyu]

And was indeed shown to be used in that order in the info graphic in the last issue. We know for a fact that the events of the attack on the Mother Mold are in life 10.

So, would that mean that DOX would be life 6 which is yet to be completed? I am confused because either this Mother Mold mission is life 10 which = 616 or it is something else. Looking at all of the characters in the series that sprout after this seems to show no Angel or Husk which makes me inclined to think either some get resurrected by pod or DOX is a different timeline other than 10.

[JKtheMac]

I agree that it's not complicated as a concept, as your concise explanation demonstrates. But to be reductive, having two mostly redundant timelines is still more complicated than one. And I'm just not sure what of these retcons (that we've seen so far) would necessitate their being quarantined in a separate, otherwise similar timeline. Maybe something else will be revealed that changes that, but it seems like that would take a lot; the continuity we've had all along has withstood quite a lot of writers going back and inserting new history to make new developments feel like they were planned from the beginning, and I think it could easily withstand more.

I totally agree. My preferred option is that life 6 is nothing to do with continuity as such but is instead the life we are seeing in X^3, a life where Moira goes all in with Trask and AI. But that's not really on topic of this thread. However something could be revealed that demonstrates the necessity of this whole retcon, and that could be done with the missing timeline. Then I wouldn't put it past Hickman to do something like this.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main appeal of your theory is that it could be open-ended, allowing writers to deviate from established continuity in small ways wherever they see fit down the line?

No. That would lead to chaos. Instead it would allow us to strategically look at events like Moira's death or anything else that is clearly and directly contradicted by the retcon, and do a bit of hand waving to say 'ah, that's life six. Life ten was non-specifically and subtly different'.

[JKtheMac]

So, would that mean that DOX would be life 6 which is yet to be completed? I am confused because either this Mother Mold mission is life 10 which = 616 or it is something else. Looking at all of the characters in the series that sprout after this seems to show no Angel or Husk which makes me inclined to think either some get resurrected by pod or DOX is a different timeline other than 10.

Dont get me wrong. I am suggesting that the comics we read, in the way that we read them, with all the standard non retcon interpretation MIGHT be life 6. BUT, that life 10 with all the Moira retcons is functionally the same and actually what we used to call 616 (which I refuse to continue using since Secret Wars because I am on Breevort's side of the friendly feud.)

[Mr. White]

Your question isn’t as provocative as you seem to hope it is. You’re not even the first one to say it. You’re more likely to get questioned for using the serious word “lynching” for something so trivial.

Anyway, I don’t think it’s really about continuity. It’s about folks trying to figure out the story, which is a natural inclination. We’ve already had two rug pulls driven by Moira’s power. First that she has it and second that X2 was her ninth life. So, it makes sense to question everything if you’re a curious and inquisitive type of person. Whether this turns out to be life 4, 6, 10 or 11, there will conversation and analysis, because some folks like to analyze the stories they read.

Thanks for taking the time out to respond albeit it didn't actually answer the question.
Seemed to place a little too much focus on the choice of words used in the post. (Unlike others who just answered).
Comes across a little defensive if you ask me.
Anywho...

[Armageddon]

lol. You have to admit it’s a little funny that your caveat at the end is basically “they would never do that. *if we ignore the other most notable Marvel story by the same writer”

That said I agree that they aren’t going to throw out the “616” continuity. BUT I do think life 10 already is the 616 continuity, I disagree that anyone is acting out of character to a degree that requires a reboot (all seems within the normal margin of what a particular writer brings and things specific to the story, to me anyway!), and I disagree with this common assessment that Hickman’s writing favors plot at the expense of characterization. Yes, the plots are pretty “showy”, but I think there’s a remarkable economy to how they’re delivered, and a similar economy to the character work. With the obvious exception of Warren and Paige’s lines last issue, I think the characters tend to say a lot with a little, and he seems to get the heart of most of these characters. And it goes a long way that as complex as the plots can be, they’re actively driven by the characters.

It’s sort of the opposite of Bendis, whose team books have always immensely frustrated me. So often his plots just seem to happen to the characters, who stand around reacting and commenting on the plot. He may fill every page with speech balloons, but I always feel like he only has two voices for characters: uses contractions, and does not use contractions. Saying little with a lot. Of course there’s a whole world of styles beyond those two writers and I totally get if Hickman isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. I just feel like he gets called cold a lot just because his plots get all the attention, when I’m not sure that the work totally bears that out IMO!

This is not 616 continuity

And I'm going to gloat and hold it over everyone's heads once this mini series wraps up and they go into Dawn of X

[TOTALITY]

So, would that mean that DOX would be life 6 which is yet to be completed? I am confused because either this Mother Mold mission is life 10 which = 616 or it is something else. Looking at all of the characters in the series that sprout after this seems to show no Angel or Husk which makes me inclined to think either some get resurrected by pod or DOX is a different timeline other than 10.

Well I highly doubt that DOX would be life 6, effectively making it a prequel to HOX/POX. But clearly there are dead characters who are alive in the upcoming series; I’m thinking of those options, pod resurrection seems much more likely than moving the story to a new timeline. Even when we inevitably see what Destiny meant by a possible 11th life, I’m pretty skeptical that it would come in a form that results in a new setting for the story.

Again, your objections to the idea she would do exactly the same thing is not what anyone is suggesting. She has been off panel for most of X-Men continuity. She has been manipulating things differently behind the scenes to set up this current situation.

This is an all or nothing power play.

The theory I am presenting is that she keeps things looking the same as a previous life otherwise known as X-Men continuity and where necessary steer the main events back to that course where they get off track, but otherwise slowly stack the deck so that when the world gets to the tipping point that would inevitably lead to disaster play the trump cards and confound and disrupt those that would threaten her plan.

As I said before, this wouldn't technically be necessary. Hickman could just be saying life ten is continuity as we know it and Moira's behind the scenes manipulation is just a normal retcon. Either way something significantly different and within her area of expertise as a geneticist has changed since the last issue of Uncanny. This is clearly something to do with Moira breaking the rules. We don't need to look elsewhere for an explanation.

Cosying up to Charles and Erik and possibly Apocalypse and or Sinister, is breaking all the rules. Setting up a potential resurrection method is breaking the rules. Manipulating a cold war situation to potentially provoke an early show down with Sentinel evolution is breaking the rules.

agree agree agree! (I wish this forum had a “like” option or something)

[TOTALITY]

No. That would lead to chaos. Instead it would allow us to strategically look at events like Moira's death or anything else that is clearly and directly contradicted by the retcon, and do a bit of hand waving to say 'ah, that's life six. Life ten was non-specifically and subtly different'.

I think that handwaving is pretty much what I had in mind but I probably changed the emphasis by putting it from the writers’ perspective rather than the readers’. I wasn’t picturing them getting specific about it on an extended basis, more just counting on that handwaving on the readers’ part. But I do still imagine that would cause a situation where every reader is waiting on some specific thing to be acknowledged as definitely having happened in the new timeline. Because fandom’s capacity for forgiving crazy-straw continuity is matched only by its fastidious fixation on details...