House of x [4] : It will be done [spoilers]

[JamJams]

I know exactly what HoX and PoX are about and how this story should end.

Well I'm curious as to what you got cooking.

[Havok83]

I just don't see it. The desperation is enough. from 17 million mutants to 1 million to about 198 in the span of what? 3 years? That is a lot of loss and fear and it's still fresh. The timeline says moira was 49 when genosha happened in life 10 right now she's 52. And we have already seen him recruit x-men that have been willing to die for him for no other reason then him saying "your a mutant." at least now he has a little more info to convince the heavy hitters. Also it's still the same dream of coexistence but they want their own state. No different than America or Wakanda or Nigeria. They aren't saying we don't want to deal with you but they are saying we will have a safe place that is our own while we do it and present to you a culture that shows we are a people as well.

I guess we'll have to wait and see bc the characterization here has been of for some characters, especially Jean which leads me to believe that my theory may carry some weight bc either she was a pod person or was messed with, but either way, this wasnt our Jean

[Joker]

Everyone died on that mission male and female, so that doesn't track from the poster with "Jean" in their screen name. You had to shoot your shot, though.

Also, let's not forget this event currently centers around the omniscient Moira MacTaggert.

Doesn't fit with Hickman's track record, ether.

[powerpax]

Even Jean has a bad day.

[Rivka]

... But we’ll see... just saying that we saw her recruit Xavier pre-X-Men and Magneto circa UXM 150 for a reason; their are more revelations about the past yet to come.

Some of us discussed this in another thread, just a small point. The recruitment happened circa UNCANNY #192 to #195, not #150. If it happened before or during #148 to #150, it doesn't make sense that Magneto still went ahead and blew up that volcano in Siberia, interrupted earth's radio and television communications to demand all nations destroy their nuclear stockpiles or he, Magneto, would do it for them, and announced he was taking over the earth for the humans' own good. Seems unlikely after that handshake between Magneto and Xavier that Xavier himself was off-shore leading the attack to stop Magneto, and even entertained the option of destroying him. Yes, it makes Xavier and Moira look very bad for putting Kitty in harm's way, but they knew Magneto had to almost kill her to shock him back to his senses. They couldn't have reasoned with him before. Magneto at that point fled to Asteroid M 2 where he went into a deep depression and began to review his life. Asteroid M 2 was suddenly hit and destroyed by incoming Warlock fleeing from his father, sending Magneto hurtling into the ocean; he barely survived. He was rescued by Lee Forrester and that's when he and she returned to the Bermuda Triangle Island. They began a love affair, had some arguments and almost broke up, but then just at the moment Magneto wanted to commit to her, to change his thinking, a giant Xavier-head appears and summons him to help the world's heroes fight in Secret Wars. Even when I read it at the time, I was like, "Hell no, Mags, don't go! Why do you drop everything, including a brand new relationship, to follow your long-time foe Charles Xavier?" So during those vignettes that appeared in NEW MUTANTS comics (numbers 26 through 28, I think, right before the Legion stories started) which told the story of Magneto and Lee's romance on the Bermuda Triangle island, that's when Moira and Xavier approached him with the totality of his and mutantkind's future, and they made that pact. Moira knew the exact time to approach him, to ensure their success.

Otherwise, fascinating discussion. I have nothing more to add because I have no idea where Hickman's going or which timeline is what, or even if we're resetting time with each Moira regeneration or peeling off alternate timelines. I have no freakin' idea. I'm just worried about the X-Men in general, and if Hickman will hurt the franchise or help.

[MechaJeanix]

Everyone died on that mission male and female, so that doesn't track from the poster with "Jean" in their screen name. You had to shoot your shot, though.

Also, let's not forget this event currently centers around the omniscient Moira MacTaggert.

Moira plays a big part yes, but I still maintain the voices he uses for male and female characters are very different. I’d be happy if any of the females get the lines or swagger that Scott and Wolverine get (both Emma and Monet show bitchy attitude which is not the same thing). Scott is shown as powerful in his presence (I’m not taking about mutant powers) . Moira as of yet does not carry the presence of Xavier or Magneto. I know I’m talking a deeper analysis here and many will disagree which is fine. Again Hickman is not known for writing great female characters. This is widely known. That said I am a big fan of this series and being a Jean fan does not disqualify my views.

[powerpax]

Moira plays a big part yes, but I still maintain the voices he uses for male and female characters are very different. I’d be happy if any of the females get the lines or swagger that Scott and Wolverine get (both Emma and Monet show bitchy attitude which is not the same thing).

Pretty sure labeling the women 'bitches' when they have the same swagger as the men is a problem.

Again Hickman is not known for writing great female characters. This is widely known.

Like who?

[Emesem]

Just because they may be "pod-clones" I think this "Xavier" could still consider them sentient, human beings and feel their loss. I'm still holding on to hope that the "real X-men" have yet to be seen and this "Prof X" is the "Man called X" (who we never really felt was the real X anyway) or another pod person who as been somewhat corrupted by whatever is causing him to wear that goofy helmet 24/7. I don't know if the "real" Xmen are prisoner of this "X" are lost or in hiding but its 100% clear that, as Mystique said, "SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT." The pods, the helmet, the inconsistent characterization of Scott and Jean can't be flukes or bad writing. Hickman is not trying to be subtle here.

I feel like there are two ways to look at this story.

I had previously thought Xavier was crafting clones of some kind through Krakoa and using his memories to kind of "idealize" them. That would explain the kind of little oddities like Jean being in her old outfit and so on. But now I'm not sure that it all lines up. Xavier certainly didn't seem like someone who just watched his colleagues die but had the means to bring them back. He seemed angered and frustrated at their loss, and determined not to let it happen again. So whatever Hickman's up to, I don't think anyone's nailed it exactly....despite some interesting theories.

We'll see how it plays out.

[MechaJeanix]

Pretty sure labeling the women 'bitches' when they have the same swagger as the men is a problem.



Like who?

I did not label them as bitches but you have to admit that being “bitchy” or snarky is a part of their character (same with Northstar) though the same isn’t used with tough guys like Scott, Logan etc. There is a huge stereotypical difference on the usage of male and female characters which is my point. My broader point is that the comics are very straight white male centric to the detriment of other types of characters (which generally has been the case) .

[powerpax]

There is a huge stereotypical difference on the usage of male and female characters which is my point.

Yes, and you just demonstrated it by dismissing Emma and Monet's conduct in House of X thus far as just them being 'bitchy' while lauding Scott and Logan. Emma accomplished her mission on Earth, Monet accomplished hers in space. Hell, Jean even accomplished hers under extreme duress.

My broader point is that the comics are very straight white male centric to the detriment of other types of characters (which generally has been the case) .

I'm not sure Jean Grey, the white queen (no pun intended) of the X-Men for over 40 years who has been frontburner nonstop whenever she is breathing oxygen, is the hill to make this stand on. I can understand being perturbed she wasn't more of a force in the battle, fine. But in the grand scheme of things, she had one less than perfect day in an issue where literally every male and female X-Man died. That's not a trend, it's a story point.

[TOTALITY]

I feel like there are two ways to look at this story.

One is on its own. I feel like the story is as internally consistent as we can expect. I think that everything makes sense within the bounds of this story. Last issue, this mission was billed as pretty much a suicide mission. And this issue confirmed that. It really shouldn't be surprising. I don't really feel that anyone's characterization was off, nor do I think that anyone seemed "incompetent". I do think that a higher sense of danger is established than what's typical in most superhero stories. So I think that overall power levels of characters has been dialed back a bit, and their general invulnerability (not as a power, but just as a star of the story) has been toned down quite a bit. These characters can get seriously hurt and killed in the line of duty. This story made that very clear. It also had a very clear sense of desperation on the part of the X-Men. They were in trouble from the very start, and they pressed on. I got that sense from all of them. It manifested in different ways for some of them. Was Jean's sense of worry an issue for me? Not at all. I think as the one who was experiencing everything from everyone firsthand and acting as that hub, she was the most concerned.

The second way to view it is to judge this story based on past stories. This is where things get a little problematic. While I can understand how some people would look at it this way, and then say that certain things make no sense....I feel like it's a bit unfair. But I also get that continuity and a shared universe are kind of billed as features of these stories.....so I get it. But still. Why do I care what Jean did in issue 280 of Uncanny in 1993? Why would I let that influence how I feel about this story? What about the shitty stories of the past? Do they get to take precedence over a good story today simply because they came first? I would expect most of us are willing to ditch at least a few stories we've read over the years. I know I am.

And I think that's really the only way to approach this series. I know it relies on the history of the X-Men. The Moira retcon and the scenes from the past make that very much a part of things. But this is also a relaunch of the franchise. A new starting point. I think we have to accept that and what the story here is establishing, and not try to let past perceptions contradict how we view this. Things are a bit toned down power-wise, characters are in actual danger, they're not all Omega level masters who can do anything they want with their powers. They have limits and flaws. We have to rely on what we're being shown here, with only a general broad view of what's come before.

Having said all that, I do think that what we're seeing is meant to be the continuity we've known all along....the 616 or primary Marvel U, whatever you want to call it. But I also think there are some things that seem just odd enough to make me expect something's up. Obviously, the opening scene of the series, with Xavier and the Krakoa pods, is the big thing that casts everything in a new light.....but his reaction in this issue makes me wonder when that opening scene takes place. None of the characters, including Xavier, seemed to think that any of the deaths were meaningless, or that they could be undone. So, if that's the case, is that opening scene on Krakoa Xavier's response to the team's deaths? If so, then how or why are other characters who were dead, like Banshee and the Cuckoos and so on, already back at the start of the series?

I had previously thought Xavier was crafting clones of some kind through Krakoa and using his memories to kind of "idealize" them. That would explain the kind of little oddities like Jean being in her old outfit and so on. But now I'm not sure that it all lines up. Xavier certainly didn't seem like someone who just watched his colleagues die but had the means to bring them back. He seemed angered and frustrated at their loss, and determined not to let it happen again. So whatever Hickman's up to, I don't think anyone's nailed it exactly....despite some interesting theories.

We'll see how it plays out.

I agree with all these takes, and you raise some interesting points!

I feel like so much of the dramatic context and urgency of the present day Krakoa/Orchis story we’ve been seeing comes from it being set in the world we’ve been reading for decades with characters who have experienced all those stories, and I’m surprised that so many people seem so eager to discount that over some characterization and power/skill depictions. Not that those things aren’t important; it’s just that it all reads to me as entirely within the usual realm of a new story having a new tone and new stakes and a new writer finding the characters’ voices. Every character may not read exactly as they did when we last saw them, but I think they all ring true to the sort of ‘platonic ideal’ of the character, with any other differences made up for by Hickman’s discretion from having placed them in an entirely new situation with clearly a bit of a time jump since we last saw them. No alternate timelines / mindless clones necessary... although I guess Hickman sort of brought this “we can’t trust anything” mentality on himself by making alternate timelines and (apparent) clones or other biological creations elements of this story.

But you raise an interesting point that while we all know those pod births from page one mean something, no theory yet put forth seems to account for everything we’ve seen. I too have thought maybe that first page was a glimpse of something that happens in reaction to this issue, but then that doesn’t account for certain characters being back from the dead already. But clearly the events of HOX 3-4 have provoked some dramatic response from Xavier, and he definitely didn’t seem to think that the X-Men he was sending into battle were expendable “fake” versions or that their deaths didn’t matter / could easily be reversed. I’ve sort of been running with the theory that he’s been resurrecting X-Men for some time now with some false sense of necessity and appreciation of its moral weight, but these deaths might be what cause him to throw that to the wind and declare blanket immortality for all mutants, which would then provoke a strong backlash from the X-Men. Buuut I don’t know; I think that’s just me trying to fit the pieces together when we don’t have all the pieces yet. Sinister is probably a big piece and I can’t wait to see how he fits in.

[spirit2011]

I did not label them as bitches but you have to admit that being “bitchy” or snarky is a part of their character (same with Northstar) though the same isn’t used with tough guys like Scott, Logan etc. There is a huge stereotypical difference on the usage of male and female characters which is my point. My broader point is that the comics are very straight white male centric to the detriment of other types of characters (which generally has been the case) .

Now that you said, I think it is clear what kind of female character Hickman likes

[TOTALITY]

Some of us discussed this in another thread, just a small point. The recruitment happened circa UNCANNY #192 to #195, not #150. If it happened before or during #148 to #150, it doesn't make sense that Magneto still went ahead and blew up that volcano in Siberia, interrupted earth's radio and television communications to demand all nations destroy their nuclear stockpiles or he, Magneto, would do it for them, and announced he was taking over the earth for the humans' own good. Seems unlikely after that handshake between Magneto and Xavier that Xavier himself was off-shore leading the attack to stop Magneto, and even entertained the option of destroying him. Yes, it makes Xavier and Moira look very bad for putting Kitty in harm's way, but they knew Magneto had to almost kill her to shock him back to his senses. They couldn't have reasoned with him before. Magneto at that point fled to Asteroid M 2 where he went into a deep depression and began to review his life. Asteroid M 2 was suddenly hit and destroyed by incoming Warlock fleeing from his father, sending Magneto hurtling into the ocean; he barely survived. He was rescued by Lee Forrester and that's when he and she returned to the Bermuda Triangle Island. They began a love affair, had some arguments and almost broke up, but then just at the moment Magneto wanted to commit to her, to change his thinking, a giant Xavier-head appears and summons him to help the world's heroes fight in Secret Wars. Even when I read it at the time, I was like, "Hell no, Mags, don't go! Why do you drop everything, including a brand new relationship, to follow your long-time foe Charles Xavier?" So during those vignettes that appeared in NEW MUTANTS comics (numbers 26 through 28, I think, right before the Legion stories started) which told the story of Magneto and Lee's romance on the Bermuda Triangle island, that's when Moira and Xavier approached him with the totality of his and mutantkind's future, and they made that pact. Moira knew the exact time to approach him, to ensure their success.

Otherwise, fascinating discussion. I have nothing more to add because I have no idea where Hickman's going or which timeline is what, or even if we're resetting time with each Moira regeneration or peeling off alternate timelines. I have no freakin' idea. I'm just worried about the X-Men in general, and if Hickman will hurt the franchise or help.

Yesssssssss yessssssss this is what I’m here for, this is that good X-Men forum stuff! I’m sorry I have nothing more cogent to add, but well done.

[jwatson]

I did not label them as bitches but you have to admit that being “bitchy” or snarky is a part of their character (same with Northstar) though the same isn’t used with tough guys like Scott, Logan etc. There is a huge stereotypical difference on the usage of male and female characters which is my point. My broader point is that the comics are very straight white male centric to the detriment of other types of characters (which generally has been the case) .

The former part i can see but then i thought Hickman wrote a great Sue Storm who was strong but then his multiple marriage harem for Black Bolt so i can kind of see the point. But your last part is spot on. I've read a few Hickman stories and aside from Tchalla i can't really think of him having any non-white characters play a huge part in any of his stories or get a moment to shine. But i'm still loving this story so far and have high hopes.

[powerpax]

I thought he did pretty well with Manifold, Shang-Chi and Captain Universe (the latter his creation), among others. Sunspot!