House of x [4] : It will be done [spoilers]

[Killerbee911]

A TP connection also severely limits the utility of one of the mutants and sacrifices one of those precious omegas. Jean shouldnt have been on that mission but since she was, she could have been put to better use. She should have been scanning that base, given Scott and the team a layout of the interior and the individuals inside. She could have been forewarned about the missile attack and TK shielded the ship or at least the individuals inside to protect everyone. Exactly WHY didnt she do this bc at this point she hadnt even established any TP connection back to Earth

She's the only one there with area of effect powers and could have been better suited to handle multiple enemies than Monet. She can fly in space and would be protected from the deaths that Mystique, Kurt and Wolverine faced. TK shields and TP would have protected her and Scott. Jean was not utilized well in this issue at all.

It is almost as if you want Jean to be incompetent. They are two ways of looking at it

A. Jean and X-men were incompetent in the mission made a bunch of mistakes that got themselves ultimately killed

B. Jean was hurt in a surprise explosion and affect her ability to perform in the mission. Jean is still competent it just a combination of Jean being hurt and Orchis an organization dedicated to stopping mutants made up groups like A.I.M, Shield, and Hammer have the tech in a highly advanced orbit base near to the Sun. Have the means defend themselves from a mutant attack.

I choose to believe the second thing the X-men are competent, And Hickman didn't feel the need to detail out every angle of why the mission did work for the X-men and some things are left for us to infer. It is not just the X-men who got "jobbed" in this story. For this mission to work it required Orchis to keep every single Sentinel they had to defend the base on mercury. You mean they weren't smart enough to leave ONE or TWO sentinel drones around. The story took some small liberties for the drama to happen. We can choose to believe that X-men did stuff wrong or we can choose to believe that we missing details about Orchis and story didn't have to into every deep detail.

-Does Orchis have anti telepath and mutant tech?
-What type of bomb did Erasmus use? Is possible that it could pierce telekinetic shields?

We know Orchis have anti-mutant tech because Karima use one on Cyclops and they killed Monet. They have a space base that can survive near the sun which is amazingly high tech if you think about, they are made up groups that have amazing tech capable of dealing with superhumans. Jean underperformed in this book but it wasn't blatant to point where people should be complaining about it considering the point of the story. If people are complaining about Jean attitude being off that I agree with 100% that was not Jean Grey who was in X-men Red. Jean has become a capable leader in her own right she needed to sound more proactive. Getting everyone voices right will take a while for the writer and Jean was far too passive imo.

Just to be clear the story has flaws, If Kurt can teleport in why did they need to breach the ship? If they are breaching the ship, They know they will be running into a counterforce there is no way everyone isn't prep for an attack at that point. etc. Just saying I don't think comic format with 20 to 25 pages is going to be ever fine detailed enough for some stories and general details and telling a good over story win out over small details. What exactly was wrong with Jean Grey in the story she clearly got hurt . I want to say she lost a leg and the first picture drawn looks like she could have lost a leg but later on when M puts her in the escape pod she has two legs which one is the glitch?

jean.jpg
jean 2.jpg

[Stormultt Divine]

Re-reading the issue AGAIN and wow...Kurt, Logan and Mother Mold really stole the issue.
Such great pages.

[jamesslow]

This is such an interesting avalanche of readings that are all more complicated than what I thought to be the most direct, spelled out version of the story! Isn’t it so much more simple to say that everything we’ve read over the decades happened that way because that’s just how it happened, except we’re now learning of a select few things that were influenced by Moira’s heretofore unseen memories of 9 previous lives? In that sense it functions the same as any retcon that injects new intentionality into past stories, like we’ve seen and easily processed countless times. I guess I’m not understanding why it needs to be anything other than that? Would love to hear it explained in those terms!

To explain in your terms why I would be very disappointed if HOX is revealed to be the continuity we've been reading since 1963, and the Lives of Moira X is just a retcon framing device which injects hidden intention into past stories, it is unbelievable to me that the three characters with knowledge of the past nine lives would behave as they have done (Xavier since he met Moira before forming the X Men circa 1963, and Magneto since the two of them visited him on Island M circa 1981). All the battles and one-on-one conversations and internal monologues and Xavier and Magneto getting painfully killed and reborn several times --not to mention Moira getting married to Joseph MacTaggert, being raped by him to give birth to Proteus, when she, at 600 or 1500 years old (depending on whether you think Moira was present during X^3), having been Mother Akkaba to Apoc's Horsemen and a trained RAF assassin, would have the confidence, knowledge and skill-set of Batman-- all of those messy stories involving the three of them would have to have been play-acted!

P/s: it would also mean that Destiny's comment, about her having 11 lives if she makes the right decision in the end, meaningless if what we call 616(1963) is her 10th life from which she cannot be reborn without rebooting the whole universe.

[Mr. White]

I'm probably going to get lynched for this question, but does it really matter which life of Moira's this is?

If so why? Genuinely asking. So amongst the lynching I'd actually like a "real" answer.

Think what Hickman has done was rather clever- splitting the Moria's lives and thus encompassing all continuity. I personally don't need to know when it happened...satisfied with just knowing that it did happen (though even this isn't really a big deal).

**Disclaimer - this is coming from someone who gave up trying to connect comic continuity many years ago and takes each volume of a comic as a standalone. Any reference to past continuity in the volume will be considered part of it. If not, so be it. I do not allow such to interfere with my enjoyment of the book.**

[Armageddon]

I'm probably going to get lynched for this question, but does it really matter which life of Moira's this is?

If so why? Genuinely asking. So amongst the lynching I'd actually like a "real" answer.

Think what Hickman has done was rather clever- splitting the Moria's lives and thus encompassing all continuity. I personally don't need to know when it happened...satisfied with just knowing that it did happen (though even this isn't really a big deal).

**Disclaimer - this is coming from someone who gave up trying to connect comic continuity many years ago and takes each volume of a comic as a standalone. Any reference to past continuity in the volume will be considered part of it. If not, so be it. I do not allow such to interfere with my enjoyment of the book.**

They're not going to give Moira a power like that and never use it

Plus the X-Men are acting too OOC in this...some of that may be Hickmans writing of plot over purpose

But I think this ends with Moira dying and it going g into the regular 616...because they're not going to have 616 reboot into something else.. leaving Secret Wars out of it

[TOTALITY]

I'm probably going to get lynched for this question, but does it really matter which life of Moira's this is?

If so why? Genuinely asking. So amongst the lynching I'd actually like a "real" answer.

Think what Hickman has done was rather clever- splitting the Moria's lives and thus encompassing all continuity. I personally don't need to know when it happened...satisfied with just knowing that it did happen (though even this isn't really a big deal).

**Disclaimer - this is coming from someone who gave up trying to connect comic continuity many years ago and takes each volume of a comic as a standalone. Any reference to past continuity in the volume will be considered part of it. If not, so be it. I do not allow such to interfere with my enjoyment of the book.**

Well, I really think that defining the main continuity as one of one character’s many lives probably has very little to do with why the concept of Moira’s reincarnation was introduced, and that will probably become more and more clear the further we get from that one issue. So in that sense, “which of Moira’s lives is this?” is probably not a super relevant question to the future of X-Men stories. I bet that a year from now we will be able to look back in bewilderment at how we ever thought this one character’s mutant power was going to be any kind of framework for larger continuity to occupy.

But for the purposes of the current story, we know the main present day story of House of X is Moira’s 10th life because it leads directly out of her 9th (they’re going on a mission based on her intel from her 9th life, as a chart in HOX#3 makes extra clear.) So I guess what people are mainly asking is, does this story take place in the same continuity we’ve been following for decades (with all that familiar history informing the characters’ interactions)? And/or will we be following this same continuity into the upcoming ongoings, or will there be some kind of reboot between now and then, presumably caused by Moira dying and reincarnating again?

[Mr. White]

They're not going to give Moira a power like that and never use it

Plus the X-Men are acting too OOC in this...some of that may be Hickmans writing of plot over purpose

But I think this ends with Moira dying and it going g into the regular 616...because they're not going to have 616 reboot into something else.. leaving Secret Wars out of it

Thanks. That would indeed be an interesting "end".

That said, according to Hickman's story the Pheonix 5 happened in Moira's 4 life (I think) which included the flooding of Wakanda, which happened in the "regular 616.

So can/does that work?

This is part of why I don't pay tto much attention to continuity LOL (BUT very open to some form of logical explanation).

[Veitha]

Thanks. That would indeed be an interesting "end".

That said, according to Hickman's story the Pheonix 5 happened in Moira's 4 life (I think) which included the flooding of Wakanda, which happened in the "regular 616.

So can/does that work?

This is part of why I don't pay tto much attention to continuity LOL (BUT very open to some form of logical explanation).

That was probably just another iteration of the Phoenix 5. It's likely some things happened the same way or in a similar fashion from life to life.

[Mr. White]

Well, I really think that defining the main continuity as one of one character’s many lives probably has very little to do with why the concept of Moira’s reincarnation was introduced, and that will probably become more and more clear the further we get from that one issue. So in that sense, “which of Moira’s lives is this?” is probably not a super relevant question to the future of X-Men stories. I bet that a year from now we will be able to look back in bewilderment at how we ever thought this one character’s mutant power was going to be any kind of framework for larger continuity to occupy.

But for the purposes of the current story, we know the main present day story of House of X is Moira’s 10th life because it leads directly out of her 9th (they’re going on a mission based on her intel from her 9th life, as a chart in HOX#3 makes extra clear.) So I guess what people are mainly asking is, does this story take place in the same continuity we’ve been following for decades (with all that familiar history informing the characters’ interactions)? And/or will we be following this same continuity into the upcoming ongoings, or will there be some kind of reboot between now and then, presumably caused by Moira dying and reincarnating again?

Fair question(s). Yeah this is more like it.

Thanks for the response T.

I like like the self containment of the story...a book about mutants telling a story about mutants (and not superheroes/ the wider Marvel U).

[Mr. White]

That was probably just another iteration of the Phoenix 5. It's likely some things happened the same way or in a similar fashion from life to life.

Very true...

[Omega_DCD]

Cross posting from the Jean thread:

For me, it's not the feats(or lack thereof) , but her entire disposition...it's tentative, while everyone else is showing steely resolve. She has to be prodded to be on mission by Cyclops, Wolverine and most off-putting of all, M(not getting into needing her telepathic support to begin with)

This is some other Jean. This is NOT the same Jean who, on the shuttle mission, assessed the situation, determined a course of action, absorbed Corbeau's flight knowledge, knocked out Scott, said her tearful goodbyes, and set her self to task, enduring way more pain than HOX Jean did from that explosion...enduring so much that even after her body is destroyed by radiation, she shunts death itself aside, carrying on, before the Phoenix intervenes.

It's just so glaring (to me) because she is furthest removed from her characterization than the others

[TOTALITY]

They're not going to give Moira a power like that and never use it

Plus the X-Men are acting too OOC in this...some of that may be Hickmans writing of plot over purpose

But I think this ends with Moira dying and it going g into the regular 616...because they're not going to have 616 reboot into something else.. leaving Secret Wars out of it

lol. You have to admit it’s a little funny that your caveat at the end is basically “they would never do that. *if we ignore the other most notable Marvel story by the same writer”

That said I agree that they aren’t going to throw out the “616” continuity. BUT I do think life 10 already is the 616 continuity, I disagree that anyone is acting out of character to a degree that requires a reboot (all seems within the normal margin of what a particular writer brings and things specific to the story, to me anyway!), and I disagree with this common assessment that Hickman’s writing favors plot at the expense of characterization. Yes, the plots are pretty “showy”, but I think there’s a remarkable economy to how they’re delivered, and a similar economy to the character work. With the obvious exception of Warren and Paige’s lines last issue, I think the characters tend to say a lot with a little, and he seems to get the heart of most of these characters. And it goes a long way that as complex as the plots can be, they’re actively driven by the characters.

It’s sort of the opposite of Bendis, whose team books have always immensely frustrated me. So often his plots just seem to happen to the characters, who stand around reacting and commenting on the plot. He may fill every page with speech balloons, but I always feel like he only has two voices for characters: uses contractions, and does not use contractions. Saying little with a lot. Of course there’s a whole world of styles beyond those two writers and I totally get if Hickman isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. I just feel like he gets called cold a lot just because his plots get all the attention, when I’m not sure that the work totally bears that out IMO!

[MechaJeanix]

This part. The only thing I'd add to this appears that Hickman perfectly crafted this scene to replicate Jean's traumatic power manifestation. Here she witnessed all of her teammates die. Not only is she telepathically linked to them all as they experience their last moments, she shares the moment with them and all of the people she's communicating with back on earth. She emotionally mature enough to compartmentalize enough to maintain the link in stead of breaking down completely. What happened here take unimaginable emotional and mental fortitude. She is no slouch. I just can't believe so many of her fans are quick to write this showing off as utterly weak and emotionally stunted. She's physically injured, emotionally shaken and mentally stressed to the umpteenth power. It seems to me most of her fans were spoiled by X-Men Red to believe that the telepathic, untouchable goddess is nerfed here. Hickman knew exactly what he was doing. Jean was flexing telepathically and that isnt enough for her fans.

It is not about feats. Having a feat does not excuse poor characterization. It is not even the die hard Jean fans like myself that are disappointed. I see many other fans especially on twitter saying how poorly Jean was written/portrayed but yet the "Jean fans" are so often criticized and the concerns dismissed. But it isn't just us there is a large consensus here that Hickman wrote poorly. That at least gives me comfort.

I do hope his portrayal of Jean gets better, but we will see. Hickman, like Rosenberg gives strong voices to the straight, mostly white characters. They do not do well with women voices. I was warned about Hickman and his portrayal of women months ago. I read his FF to see for myself. He wrote a strong Invisible Woman but it wasn't her story. It was Reed's story.

[TOTALITY]

To explain in your terms why I would be very disappointed if HOX is revealed to be the continuity we've been reading since 1963, and the Lives of Moira X is just a retcon framing device which injects hidden intention into past stories, it is unbelievable to me that the three characters with knowledge of the past nine lives would behave as they have done (Xavier since he met Moira before forming the X Men circa 1963, and Magneto since the two of them visited him on Island M circa 1981). All the battles and one-on-one conversations and internal monologues and Xavier and Magneto getting painfully killed and reborn several times --not to mention Moira getting married to Joseph MacTaggert, being raped by him to give birth to Proteus, when she, at 600 or 1500 years old (depending on whether you think Moira was present during X^3), having been Mother Akkaba to Apoc's Horsemen and a trained RAF assassin, would have the confidence, knowledge and skill-set of Batman-- all of those messy stories involving the three of them would have to have been play-acted!

P/s: it would also mean that Destiny's comment, about her having 11 lives if she makes the right decision in the end, meaningless if what we call 616(1963) is her 10th life from which she cannot be reborn without rebooting the whole universe.

Hmm, well if I am right about all those lives amounting to the injection of new intention to moments spliced into the regular “616” history (a big if of course) then I hope they can win you over by the end.

I think Joseph MacTaggert is going to be at the center of the biggest retcon yet to come. I do have a pet theory: basically that life 6 started with her out to murder the Trasks as we saw in life 7, but that plan was derailed when she was assaulted by Joseph MacTaggert, and gave birth to Proteus. A setback at the time, but in life 10 Proteus is a major part of her plan (as is Legion, I think, possibly involving his eventual murder of Destiny) so she seeks out Joseph MacTaggert for his genes and maybe their whole relationship and the assault are a psychic construct by Xavier / transplantation of Moira’s memory of the crime from life 6, as a “punishment” for the crime he committed in another life. BUT even if my extremely specific theory isn’t true, there’s no way Proteus isn’t a huge part of what’s in store. There’s no way they’re just going to leave it at “yeah, this 1000 year old mastermind just happened to fall for this basic sleazebag, life is strange”.

I’m starting to think another retcon will be that Xavier and Moira have been bringing X-Men back from the dead for some time now, starting with Jean — it was the real Jean possessed by the Phoenix, and the one in the cocoon was placed in the ocean by Xavier and Moira later. Maybe they started out conservatively and the Orchis slaughter is what pushes him to go full God and brings this out into the open. (Edit- I should add, what would the point of this retcon be? Because if we accept that the Jean we’ve known since 1985 is as real as can be, as I’m sure we all do, then we’d more easily accept that any new Krakoan “replacement bodies” + transplanted psyches/memories are just as real)

Or maybe not.

But anyway, your broader point about how those three would have to be play acting the whole time, I just don’t see it that way! Because as much as they know from Moira’s previous lives, it still doesn’t amount to a surefire actionable path forward. And they have always had different philosophies about how to go about that stuff. So I think all their petty disagreements over the years still ring totally true to these particular characters and their god complexes. It’s like the superhuman equivalent of all the anxiety I have about cancer and climate change yet still do very little to actively change my lifestyle to affect those things. And Magneto’s defection circa 1992 just happens to fit especially well — he thought Moira’s genetic meddling called into question his free will!

Of course not every single interaction or internal monologue will hold up, but I think it works well enough not to worry about the little examples. (One that comes to mind: in an early Excalibur issue, Moira switches places with a nazi version of herself from a nazi dimension. Now I’m wondering what happened in that Moira’s previous lives to make her a nazi! Maybe that dimension’s Destiny hadn’t gotten to her yet.)

[useridgoeshere]

I'm probably going to get lynched for this question, but does it really matter which life of Moira's this is?

If so why? Genuinely asking. So amongst the lynching I'd actually like a "real" answer.

Think what Hickman has done was rather clever- splitting the Moria's lives and thus encompassing all continuity. I personally don't need to know when it happened...satisfied with just knowing that it did happen (though even this isn't really a big deal).

**Disclaimer - this is coming from someone who gave up trying to connect comic continuity many years ago and takes each volume of a comic as a standalone. Any reference to past continuity in the volume will be considered part of it. If not, so be it. I do not allow such to interfere with my enjoyment of the book.**

Your question isn’t as provocative as you seem to hope it is. You’re not even the first one to say it. You’re more likely to get questioned for using the serious word “lynching” for something so trivial.

Anyway, I don’t think it’s really about continuity. It’s about folks trying to figure out the story, which is a natural inclination. We’ve already had two rug pulls driven by Moira’s power. First that she has it and second that X2 was her ninth life. So, it makes sense to question everything if you’re a curious and inquisitive type of person. Whether this turns out to be life 4, 6, 10 or 11, there will conversation and analysis, because some folks like to analyze the stories they read.