Batman Beyond: A Discussion

[Tulku]

I am not making this an "appreciation" thread since those, by definition, are not intended for negative comments. But a discussion thread? Let's go!

I am starting this because Dan Jurgens current storyline is impressing me. When it started, I thought it was same-old-same-old: Bruce goes to Arkham. The lights go out and a very different acting Bruce emerges. No mystery there: a substitution has occurred and I figured that Terry & crew would figure it out (while Bruce saves himself from Arkham) and the only suspense is what to do with a villain that knows about the Cave and all their identities. Ho hum, snore.

But the story has gone waaaaaaaaay beyond that and it reflects many of the things I like about Batman Beyond. While there are some ties to the current DCU, it isn't slavishly bowing to the present storylines (heck, it isn't involved in any way with the tedious retread "Year of the Villain" event)(seriously, didn't we have Villains United not all that long ago? Are we that short on ideas that we re-do things every five to ten years?). The main villains in the current BB story (False Face and Splitt) are an interesting mix of old (but forgotten) and new--with ties to Derek Powers, for gosh sakes! Every fan of the animated series has to love that! The plot twists involve the extend Bat Family of the Beyondiverse, with Ten getting some well-deserved spotlight. And as for Terry...well, as of issue #35, I am not sure how this is all going to play out. Surely Barbara will play a part in straightening things out? But they would have to catch Terry first!

Jurgens has laid a number of plot threads down that could keep him and future writers busy for Quite Some Time. This is the sort of comic that got me into reading comics way back when. So, yes, I really really enjoying the current run of Batman Beyond, but this is not an appreciation thread. It is a discussion. What do the rest of you think?

[Tulku]

Hmmmm. Okay, this thread took off somewhat worse than a lead balloon (the Mythbusters proved that a lead balloon could get off the ground...unlike this thread).

But I'll take one more shot, since the new issue is out. No spoilers (although the "what to do with a villain that knows your identity" bit was resolved with one of the oldest tropes imaginable). But the issue ends with a mysterious feminine figure sneaking into the Batcave to swipe the super-suit, and a teaser referencing "the million-dollar debut of...Batwoman!" So, time for discussion: who could it be?

(1) The tag line is reminiscent of how Barbara Gordon was originally introduced as Batgirl. So Babs has to be on the list. Actually, if this was still the animated series universe, that would be ridiculous: Barbara was depicted as too old and too much against masked vigilantes for that to fly. But this time-line (post-Future's End) has an inexplicably age-regressed Barbara and she seems to fine with the idea of masked vigilantes. But, still, I vote no--because it would be too obvious.

(2) Melanie (Ten): Again, a little too obvious. Ten seems happy with her own suit, name and skills.

(3) Nissa: For those who don't recall her very rare appearances, she is "Batgirl Beyond"--but tends to be ignored. I think we last saw her in issue # 12. I doubt it is her because, well, she is ignored. And it has not been truly established that she even knows where the Cave is. Besides, she is devoted to protecting "Crown Point"--the seedy spot of Neo-Gotham. Nissa might show up, though, to help amnesiac Terry, who is headed further into the seedy side of life. That would be cool.

(4) Max: Not her style. Besides, the mysterious figure seems to have white (or at least light) skin, which kind of rules Maxine out.

(5) Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain: I lump them together. Neither has shown in the Beyondiverse as far as I can recall. It wouldn't be a bad idea to introduce one or the other. Both are potential candidates in my mind (the "white wrists" might be Asian...they don't look it, but it's close enough not to be definitive about it, so Cassandra is still viable).

(6) Kate: Also no known appearance in the Beyondiverse, but making Batwoman be Batwoman Beyond is beyond boring.

(7) Tim Drake: Okay, he's a guy. But DC keeps trying to reinvent him into a character that people might actually give a damn about...and, while an alternate timeline Drake did wear the Batsuit for a time following Future's End, we don't really know what happened to the Tim Drake of this timeline. Maybe his life took, ummm, another path.

(8) Dana. Oh, we have a winner. She knows of the Cave, she knows the suit. With Terry missing, she might well come to help. Coloring of the wrists is still an issue, but re-introducing Dana this way, and adding her to the cast to create friction with Terry and Ten? That is storytelling gold. It's gotta be Dana.

But, then, I am almost always wrong on these things. Being wrong is my superpower. Any other votes?

[Tulku]

My apologies. I know I promised (above) that I was only going to give this thread one more shot, but, honestly, the current storyline in Batman Beyond is really worth reading. The mystery of the new Batwoman remains intriguing. The current issue (# 39) has her stating bluntly that she is not "inexperienced" in fighting supervillians. I have to say, that kind of shoots down my guess of Dana. In book, the hot favorites are Barbara Gordon or Melanie, but I refuse to believe that it is either of them. The bit about experience makes Stephanie (and/or Cassandra) a better candidate. I'm doubtful as to Cassandra (honestly, this Batwoman isn't as good a fighter as Cass) but Steph is a possibility.

And I am trying to remember. In the current BB continuity, doesn't Dick "Don't Call Me Ric" Grayson have a daughter? I am too tired to look it up, but, as far as I know (and assuming my memory is right), she has not fought a supervillain. So the claim of experience works against her, unless she thinks being trained by her father constitutes experience.

Allegedly, next issue will reveal her identity.

So, really, am I the only person on this forum reading this book? Because, if I am, the rest of you are missing a great read.

[thwhtGuardian]

I actually just started reading Batman Beyond from the beginning (the 1999 series) based on hearing good things about the current run so I'm looking forward to getting there.

[dietrich]

My apologies. I know I promised (above) that I was only going to give this thread one more shot, but, honestly, the current storyline in Batman Beyond is really worth reading. The mystery of the new Batwoman remains intriguing. The current issue (# 39) has her stating bluntly that she is not "inexperienced" in fighting supervillians. I have to say, that kind of shoots down my guess of Dana. In book, the hot favorites are Barbara Gordon or Melanie, but I refuse to believe that it is either of them. The bit about experience makes Stephanie (and/or Cassandra) a better candidate. I'm doubtful as to Cassandra (honestly, this Batwoman isn't as good a fighter as Cass) but Steph is a possibility.

And I am trying to remember. In the current BB continuity, doesn't Dick "Don't Call Me Ric" Grayson have a daughter? I am too tired to look it up, but, as far as I know (and assuming my memory is right), she has not fought a supervillain. So the claim of experience works against her, unless she thinks being trained by her father constitutes experience.

Allegedly, next issue will reveal her identity.

So, really, am I the only person on this forum reading this book? Because, if I am, the rest of you are missing a great read.

I'm reading it and I'm enjoying the heck out of it. Dick does have a Daughter.

I had guessed that it was Cass under the mask but Blight beating the batwoman pretty much throws major spanners in that theory.

Steph or Harper are pretty much the only other candidates.

[adrikito]

Cassandra Cain has more chances than Steph to appear..

DC is not making anything with Steph(minus Bendis, but even DC stopped him to give her more relevance according one interview.. She can only be one secondary character ) to think that she can be Batwoman.

[Ascended]

I gotta get back into the title. Grabbed the first Rebirth trade when it hit, and enjoyed it well enough, but not enough to make it a must-read title. I always enjoyed the Beyond 'verse and figured I'd catch up eventually when I had a little more free time (someday!) but Jurgens writing didn't inspire me to rush. And then I heard about the Batwoman thing and lost all interest, assuming it'd be another by the numbers kind of narrative I've seen a hundred times.

But if the word of mouth is that good....maybe I'll have to bump it up on my priority list.

[Jackalope89]

Batman Beyond is solid. The amnesia bit is not exactly original, but at least they're going a different direction with it.

Batgirl Beyond, yeah. Kind of dancing between Dana and Dick's daughter myself. Plus, so far, its a future where Damian isn't a bad guy (and in fact has retooled the League of Assassins into a force for good).

[Shamrock Holmes]

Batgirl Beyond, yeah. Kind of dancing between Dana and Dick's daughter myself.

That second one is an option I hadn't considered -- which is ironic as I've considered having her as Batgirl in my WIP fanfic -- but could definately fit.

[Arctic Cyclist]

My apologies. I know I promised (above) that I was only going to give this thread one more shot, but, honestly, the current storyline in Batman Beyond is really worth reading. The mystery of the new Batwoman remains intriguing. The current issue (# 39) has her stating bluntly that she is not "inexperienced" in fighting supervillians. I have to say, that kind of shoots down my guess of Dana. In book, the hot favorites are Barbara Gordon or Melanie, but I refuse to believe that it is either of them. The bit about experience makes Stephanie (and/or Cassandra) a better candidate. I'm doubtful as to Cassandra (honestly, this Batwoman isn't as good a fighter as Cass) but Steph is a possibility.

And I am trying to remember. In the current BB continuity, doesn't Dick "Don't Call Me Ric" Grayson have a daughter? I am too tired to look it up, but, as far as I know (and assuming my memory is right), she has not fought a supervillain. So the claim of experience works against her, unless she thinks being trained by her father constitutes experience.

Allegedly, next issue will reveal her identity.

So, really, am I the only person on this forum reading this book? Because, if I am, the rest of you are missing a great read.

Possibly you are. There was an interesting article on litreactor.com a few years ago about how most people in comic forums don't actually read comics, and CBR was one of the websites brought up. Specifically that in a single day, it will get more visitors than Snyder's Batman would do in sales for a month. Although I don't know if the writer was just going off of Diamond or including digital sales as well.

For the most part BB Rebirth has been a miss for me, but that's probably due to my loving the old version (I would wait for it to come online on Fridays) and the hints of it in Batman 700, Superman Batman, and Li'l Gotham.

As it is, I agree. This story is better than expected. Blight is one of my favorite villains, and the further exploration of his past with Warren is fantastic. Derek Powers was a background character and referenced frequently in Snyder's Batman, Superheavy in particular. We met Warren in Gotham Academy...and later Blight/Derek Powers in the Second Semester Annual when Blight had traveled back in time to kill Warren. The fact that this timeline keeps lining up like that —Dick mentioned being shot in the head and his amnesia, the failed relationship with Catwoman and the hints that it's why Bruce ends up broke and alone, the fortress Damian was shown living in just appeared in Teen Titans as the Heretic's base and the foot soldiers are the same— is immensely satisfying. I'm even down with Dick's current squeeze being Eliana's mom.

As for Batwoman Beyond, why not Harper Row? Keeping Batwoman a lesbian seems right, and she has the experience and skills with the lack of fighting ability any of the rest of the Damian through Jason generation has. It's absolutely not Cass, and I have always liked that in the other futures we see where Tim's not a megalomaniac killer that he and Stephanie end up together making babies and avoiding the crime lifestyle. Not that I wouldn't love Stephanie or Dana in the role. It's that Harper would be a great twist, and just as Terry is a fitting heir to either Bruce or Damian's Batman, she would be a fitting heir to Kate.

My other bet would be Bette, but Bette is too old. Damian's in his late thirties, so Bette would have to be in her forties/fifties.

[Jackalope89]

Possibly you are. There was an interesting article on litreactor.com a few years ago about how most people in comic forums don't actually read comics, and CBR was one of the websites brought up. Specifically that in a single day, it will get more visitors than Snyder's Batman would do in sales for a month. Although I don't know if the writer was just going off of Diamond or including digital sales as well.

For the most part BB Rebirth has been a miss for me, but that's probably due to my loving the old version (I would wait for it to come online on Fridays) and the hints of it in Batman 700, Superman Batman, and Li'l Gotham.

As it is, I agree. This story is better than expected. Blight is one of my favorite villains, and the further exploration of his past with Warren is fantastic. Derek Powers was a background character and referenced frequently in Snyder's Batman, Superheavy in particular. We met Warren in Gotham Academy...and later Blight/Derek Powers in the Second Semester Annual when Blight had traveled back in time to kill Warren. The fact that this timeline keeps lining up like that —Dick mentioned being shot in the head and his amnesia, the failed relationship with Catwoman and the hints that it's why Bruce ends up broke and alone, the fortress Damian was shown living in just appeared in Teen Titans as the Heretic's base and the foot soldiers are the same— is immensely satisfying. I'm even down with Dick's current squeeze being Eliana's mom.

As for Batwoman Beyond, why not Harper Row? Keeping Batwoman a lesbian seems right, and she has the experience and skills with the lack of fighting ability any of the rest of the Damian through Jason generation has. It's absolutely not Cass, and I have always liked that in the other futures we see where Tim's not a megalomaniac killer that he and Stephanie end up together making babies and avoiding the crime lifestyle. Not that I wouldn't love Stephanie or Dana in the role. It's that Harper would be a great twist, and just as Terry is a fitting heir to either Bruce or Damian's Batman, she would be a fitting heir to Kate.

My other bet would be Bette, but Bette is too old. Damian's in his late thirties, so Bette would have to be in her forties/fifties.

Harper would be in the same age range as Bette/Tim/Cass/Steph.

[Drexelhand]

A very interesting fact about this is, Dan Jurgens has been writing this Batman Beyond story since 2014. That's right, it'll soon be six years since he started writing Terry McGinnis in May, 2014 in The New 52: Futures End, in which the character was only chosen because Brian Azzarello didn't know of any other famous DC characters from alternate futures. In many ways, this story has become the magnum opus of Jurgens' career as a writer, with his only time as an artist during his time with the character coming for a few parts of Futures End. I'm honestly excited to see where he goes next with this character.

Cassandra Cain being the new Batwoman would be interesting and would show a progression of character. However, the character is clearly not as skilled as she would be. As for Cass beating Blight? The man is made up of radiation, that would weaken her and it's kind of hard to read the body language of a monster, if I recall.

The most obvious answer seems to be Elainna Grayson, or maybe whoever her mother is (probably Huntress).

All I'm wondering is how DC 5G will affect this. Will the series be relaunched again? Maybe, but it's also not as high in its issue count as some series that seem like they will be. This series has also described how Bruce retired in detail, from a fight with the Joker to using an experimental exosuit against the Banes. If DC 5G is really going to move Bruce closer to the age he is when those happened, then Jurgens may need to retcon some of the past he's established to make it fit in with the new continuity.

However, a more pressing concern with this series is the number of dropped characters: Tim Drake, Max Payne, Ray Palmer, Mr. Terrific, Prince Tuftan and the list goes on. There's a lot of potential there but it seems it may not be touched because Jurgens wanted to move beyond the DC You status quo to one with a lot more interesting stories. I recall one Twitter reply where Jurgens said he had no current plans to bring those guys back in but that he wasn't going to discount it for the future.

[Tulku]

A very interesting fact about this is, Dan Jurgens has been writing this Batman Beyond story since 2014. That's right, it'll soon be six years since he started writing Terry McGinnis in May, 2014 in The New 52: Futures End, in which the character was only chosen because Brian Azzarello didn't know of any other famous DC characters from alternate futures. In many ways, this story has become the magnum opus of Jurgens' career as a writer, with his only time as an artist during his time with the character coming for a few parts of Futures End. I'm honestly excited to see where he goes next with this character.

Wow! I had not realized it had been that long...but maybe that is why the series is really hitting on all cylinders now. When a writer becomes that invested in the characters, good stories come. Mind you, I am trusting that this storyline will end with Terry back in the suit. He really is the only proper person to be the future Batman, just like Bruce is the only "real" Batman in the "present."

I hope that 5G will not affect this at all. As I have stated many times, part of what I love about Batman Beyond is that it doesn't get dragged down into every silly present day major crossover "event." I am SO SICK OF THESE STUPID "EVENTS"!!!!!!

Sorry. Didn't mean to shout. But the point is that this title works best when it does not link itself to whatever the current-day titles are doing. It is "A" future of the DC Universe, not necessarily "THE" future. That is always true about any of these "future" comics, including the Legion.

As for including future versions of other current heroes...again, one of the greatest strengths of BB is that it has not given in to the temptation of overloading the stories with legacy heroes. It builds its own universe of characters Every now and then we have a future version of a current hero, and that is fine and natural--but no need for that to happen constantly. In other words, I agree with Jurgens: no current plans, but maybe in the future.

[Tulku]

Oh, and a P.S.

While I would love to see Future Cassandra, there really is no chance that she is Batwoman. Unless, for some reason, she forgot how to fight over the years. I am beginning to get swayed by the Harper arguments.

Really really really looking forward to the next issue. This is what comics fandom should be like: actually wanting to read the next month's installment.

[Drexelhand]

Wow! I had not realized it had been that long...but maybe that is why the series is really hitting on all cylinders now. When a writer becomes that invested in the characters, good stories come. Mind you, I am trusting that this storyline will end with Terry back in the suit. He really is the only proper person to be the future Batman, just like Bruce is the only "real" Batman in the "present."

I hope that 5G will not affect this at all. As I have stated many times, part of what I love about Batman Beyond is that it doesn't get dragged down into every silly present day major crossover "event." I am SO SICK OF THESE STUPID "EVENTS"!!!!!!

Sorry. Didn't mean to shout. But the point is that this title works best when it does not link itself to whatever the current-day titles are doing. It is "A" future of the DC Universe, not necessarily "THE" future. That is always true about any of these "future" comics, including the Legion.

As for including future versions of other current heroes...again, one of the greatest strengths of BB is that it has not given in to the temptation of overloading the stories with legacy heroes. It builds its own universe of characters Every now and then we have a future version of a current hero, and that is fine and natural--but no need for that to happen constantly. In other words, I agree with Jurgens: no current plans, but maybe in the future.

What I meant was less using older versions of current day heroes and more resolving dropped plot threads from Futures End and DC You Batman Beyond. The two big ones are, what happened to the Tim Drake Batman's resistance in NYC? In the last issue of Futures End, he's with them but in the first issue of DC YOU BB, he's returned to Neo Gotham. Then, there's Prince Tuftan and all his evolved animals who allied with Dr. Abel Cuvier. Finally, there's whatever happened to Tim Drake himself. Last we heard, he just disappeared in the past after a mission with the Teen Titans.