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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Default Do the best women of Marvel come from the X-Men brand?

    All of the shilling Captain Carol got in the comics and especially the MCU has been pointed out as being rather hollow, as it only came about due to film rights (that are thankfully no longer an issue). It's pointed out that the X-Women were far more celebrated and beloved than Carol, and were treated as such by Marvel until sometime in the '10s when the MCU took precedence over all else. This may have stemmed from Chris Claremont's iconic run, where he set out to include strong female characters like never before, to which he succeeded, and has since been the norm. Hell, even Carol owes a lot to Claremont. Make of that what you will.

    Reading off the amount of strong female characters who come from X-Men is pretty long. It goes:

    • Jean Grey
    • Polaris
    • Storm
    • Kitty Pryde
    • Mystique
    • Rogue
    • Emma Frost
    • Dazzler
    • Karma
    • Magik
    • Dani Moonstar
    • Wolfsbane
    • Magma
    • Rachel Summers
    • Psylocke
    • Jubilee
    • M
    • Blink
    • Domino
    • Stepford Cuckoos
    • X-23
    • Armor
    • Pixie
    • Hope Summers
    • Honey Badger/Scout


    Just to name some.

    It seems a combination of being a female mutant will make you a top-tier asskicker, and an awesome one at that. Coincidentally, another iconic heroine that isn't a mutant is another one that Marvel didn't have access to, that being the Invisible Woman.

    I think the MCU has kinda suffered from this, and I know it's been complained about in the past that the movies were lacking great and memorable heroines people liked. In reality, I think it might have to do with the fact that the best ones were locked away from them by being part of the X-brand. It'll be interesting to see how the situation is when they come to the MCU. In fact, looking past the movies and into the game side, there's the Marvel vs. Capcom games, where all the female character representatives on the Marvel side before the crappy Infinite were X-Women barring the sole exception of She-Hulk.

    So really, are the best Marvel female characters X-Women?

    Discuss.
    Last edited by Hybrid; 09-05-2019 at 12:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Mighty Member
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    I mean Sue deserves a medal from putting up with Reed for so many years. So i'd say she pretty high up there on the list with X-Women

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    The fact that 90% of the posts like that are about comparing the X-women with Carol just shows how the push for her was actually successful lol.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    But Kate Bishop isn't a mutant.

  5. #5
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    Being as generous as possible for the avengers and inhumans it's a 85/15 split in the xmen favor.

  6. #6
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Grace Rdndolph once said the best women of comics comes from the x brand. this is one of the few times she was right. this is another one of fox x-men movies failings. they had all these female characters and they just put focus on mystique because Jlaw was a big star

  7. #7
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    Being prevented from using characters like Storm and the Invisible Woman was a downer for the MCU, but bear in mind that this is a company that chose not to use the Wasp in the first Avengers movie, because they were 'saving her' for the Wright-directed Ant-Man movie in perpetual limbo (and whose script, Peyton Reed later said, *didn't even have her in it!*).

    So there's lots of silliness to go around.

    But there are great female characters both at the X-franchise (I'm partial to less-popular characters like Dust, Loa, Fixx, Scaleface, Diamond Lil, Frenzy, Unuscione, Monet, etc. but would love to have seen good portrayals of more big-name characters like Jean, Storm, Emma and Rogue as well) and outside the X-offices (Songbird, Snowbird, Moondragon, Elsa Bloodstone, Finesse, Diamondback, Misty Knight, Supernova/Frankie Raye, Sersi, Crystal, She-Hulk, Monica Frikkin' Rambeau!, Spider-Girl/Anya Corazon, Yellowjacket 2/Rita DeMara, etc.) and it's not like the MCU has been stellar about doing jack all with most of those characters, either...

    I mean, gosh, of all the Avengers to focus on, let's pick someone who has no powers, who joined ELEVEN YEARS LATER, and who is not only not the first, but not even the second woman to be an Avenger. Similarly, of all the Guardians of the Galaxy, let's ignore frikkin' Moondragon, who can mind control a planet, beat down Galactus' psychic shields, and control Thor for an extended time, for Gamora, whose super-power was, for most of her career, 'Has a knife,' and, much like the Black Widow as an Avenger, has the dubious honor of being one of the *least* super people on the super-team...

    I would say that 'at least that's not as likely to be a problem in a movie about mutants, because girl mutants have powers, too' (and they so often utterly kick ass...), but then there was First Class, where Moira got more focus and speaking lines and plot relevance than Angel or Emma (and Mystique, with one of the least ass-kicking mutant powers out there since Warren Worthington III, got the most...). Ugh.

    Sadly Fox hasn't really done much to show up Marvel in this regard, squandering it's own embarassment of riches.

    "Hey, we've got Selene, who is utterly terrifying, for mutant lady-villains! Or Cassandra Nova, or Madelyne Pryor..."
    "Nah, let's use someone (a version of Lady Deathstrike) whose mutant power will be to be not as good as Wolverine, and *not even give her any speaking lines.*"
    "Brilliant! I especially like that we won't have to pay her as much!" :/

  8. #8
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    What's funny about Black Widow is that she's gotten heaps of praise for just being alright. I guess "just alright" is a high standard in the MCU for female heroes, and we took what we got. A lot of people wanted her to get a movie for so long, and now that she's getting one, most people I've seen are kinda eh about it. I've seen more hype for Taskmaster, if anything.

    You also point out that they chose Gamora and lamented it. Here's something to further lament: they still got her wrong. She's supposed to be the deadliest woman in the whole galaxy, but she came across as meh. She was overshadowed by everyone else from Star-Lord to Rocket to Yondu.

    The Wasp is the founding female Avenger, and she got adapted out of being an Avenger. Then they don't even use Janet, but Hope, an INO carryover from the MU2 comics. She's kinda meh as well, often overshadowed by Scott Lang.

    I do very much enjoy the MCU, but there are creative decisions that I don't much care for.

  9. #9
    Mysterious Telepath Spinster Sinister's Avatar
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    The MU have been killing it in the past decade though while the X-Line has kind of squandered their big lead. The X-Men still have FANTASTIC lead women, they just need to be utilized better.

    Fave MU ladies:
    Kate Bishop
    She-Hulk
    Elsa Bloodstone
    Jane Foster
    Shuri
    Ms Marvel
    Sue Storm
    Spectrum
    Ironheart
    Ms America
    The girls of the Runaways
    Wave
    Aero
    Moondragon
    Phylla Vell
    Nightshade
    Black Cat
    Silk
    Last edited by Spinster Sinister; 09-05-2019 at 05:32 AM.

  10. #10
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    Yes, the X females have always been the best. Outside the XMEN, it'd have to be the DC Universe (mainly Batman rogues). I always found most of the Avengers women bland and generic.

    The MU have been killing it in the past decade though while the X-Line has kind of squandered their big lead. The X-Men still have FANTASTIC lead women, they just need to be utilized better.
    Yep! I believe with female heroes being more popular now than ever, they will get great treatment in the MCU. The timing seems perfect. I hope.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member Jesse-James's Avatar
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    I think Marvel's most famous/popular women are at this moment;

    Captain Marvel
    Invisible Woman
    Storm
    Jean Grey
    She Hulk
    Emma Frost
    Jane Foster
    Rogue
    Kitty Pryde
    Shuri
    Ms. Marvel
    Gamora
    Black Widow

    So most of them are indeed X-Men, but also a lot of (former) Avengers.

    My gavorites outside of the X-verse would be Moondragon, Photon, Iso (Inhumans), Phylla Vell and Kate Bishop

  12. #12
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    is it 1991

  13. #13

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    Marvel has almost always done a great job depicting their female characters as equals and 'strong.' Carol used to be a more well rounded character but they took the most generic parts about her and emphasized those (being a strong female, being tough, not taking any gruff from a man, etc). To me, those things are generic and can be put on any female character and that in turn makes THEM a completely bland, generic character. Focus on her being a natural leader. Focus on her overcoming her alcoholism. Focus on her struggle with the the past and her inner turmoil with Rogue WHILE still being a strong female, being tough, etc. Instead I feel like Carol has just been turned into a generic I Am Woman Hear Me Roar character.

    With the main X-Women (Storm, Rogue, Jean) they are EXTREMELY complex and deep characters. These ladies are SO much more than being a strong female character. Storm has claustrophobia. Rogue can't physically touch someone. Jean battles to not listen to everyone around her. Storm is a phenomenal leader. Rogue struggles with letting go of the past. Jean struggles to not show her insecurities. I could go on and on with the X-Women. They are so complex and deep and I totally think the best women of Marvel come from the X-Brand.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTHIOTina View Post
    Marvel has almost always done a great job depicting their female characters as equals and 'strong.' Carol used to be a more well rounded character but they took the most generic parts about her and emphasized those (being a strong female, being tough, not taking any gruff from a man, etc). To me, those things are generic and can be put on any female character and that in turn makes THEM a completely bland, generic character. Focus on her being a natural leader. Focus on her overcoming her alcoholism. Focus on her struggle with the the past and her inner turmoil with Rogue WHILE still being a strong female, being tough, etc. Instead I feel like Carol has just been turned into a generic I Am Woman Hear Me Roar character.
    Amen. I really used to like Carol during the Ms.Marvel days. But now I think they stripped her of most of the traits/history that I appreciated about her.

  15. #15
    That's what makes it fun! Ricochet Rita's Avatar
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    Short answer: YES. To a great extent thanks to Chris Claremont.

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