Do the best women of Marvel come from the X-Men brand?

[Electricmastro]

I think the direction you've steered the thread is a pretty natural shift. The points you've personally made are spot on. So much so that the folks that reimagined her weren't shy about addressing the elephant in the room.
https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/19/17...-sue-deconnick

"As Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel, Carol has led the Avengers, adventured with the X-Men and saved the world over and over again. She’s one of the most powerful Marvel superheroes who isn’t simply a god. And in the MCU, where characters like Storm and Jean Grey don’t (yet) exist, she’s inarguably the most powerful superheroine around."

This piece cannot be overlooked. Carol occupies the space she does in the MCU by default, not because it's what her character deserves. The people responsible for bringing her closer to a real world heroine acknowledge this willingly. This isn't about putting two women against one another for the top whatever spot. This is about simply acknowledging what is. Carol is toted as the most powerful woman or hero in the MCU because Ororo and Jean aren't available to contest her place. That is calling a spade a spade. Its always kinda weird as these conversations unfold because of the "stop pitting women against each other" vibe that comes along. From my pov the really important part never gets addressed. It's always a variation on the same conversation.

While we sit and debate why Brie Larson's Captain Marvel deserves a place in the MCU, the quote directly informs why she doesn't deserve the place she was given. It's no different from the Avengers having their given place because the X-Men were unavailable. Brie Larson and her portrayal of Captain Marvel as far as the feminist agenda goes, falls on the deaf ears of the black women she had to step on to get to her place of personified white femininity. Not only was the name Captain Marvel taken from Monica Rambeau and given to Carol Danvers so she could run around and build a reputation as the most powerful marvel hero on the scene. Monica dwarfs her, but she was nerfed to make her more human in a time when women are supposedly evening out the power dynamic.

Then we have Storm that's clearly more deserving of the spot as Marvel's premiere heroine because of what she represents. For everything that Carol represents, Ororo represents and more. White feminists and black feminists often don't see eye to eye because black women have always had a contentious relationship with mainstream femininity. Their's has always been denied. The darker the black woman, the more likely she is to be denied her feminine nature. The courser her hair is, the greater the likelihood she will be denied the shield that mainstream feminist agendas afford white "women". When feminism was getting its first push for "women" to enter the workforce and get out of the kitchen, it was black women that were being cooks and nannies. Black and white women have never been in the position to want for the same things. Black women are still fighting for their rights to be feminine all while pictures have been painted for decades of black women too masculine and therefore deserving of the brutality committed against them. White women have been complicit in their silence. The only time a slave woman's femininity was brought up was when the eyes of the slave master fell upon her body in lustful ways. Other than that, black women had the same work load as black men.

None of this means Carol isn't deserving of her own place in the MCU. It means she isn't qualified enough for the place she occupies now. She was given her place over two black women that embody everything she does and more. The worst part is we're expected to believe that she inspired two women of color to take up her brand of superhero business. I would say I'm surprised if the same thing didn't happen with Fox's Storm and Mystique's farce of a dynamic. Why do white women love to use their brand of white supremacy to deny black women their rights as women? And why is it such common place for people to ignore it?

Oh my, did your post take quite the turn of events...

[TheCape]

Not only was the name Captain Marvel taken from Monica Rambeau and given to Carol Danvers so she could run around and build a reputation as the most powerful marvel hero on the scene. Monica dwarfs her, but she was nerfed to make her more human in a time when women are supposedly evening out the power dynamic.

Monica lost the name way before Carol push though.

[Snoop Dogg]

Monica lost the name way before Carol push though.

stop posting facts

[TheCape]

stop posting facts

I mean i can understand not liking Carol after Marvel push, eapecially after Civil War II and whatever Stohl was doing, but it kind of annoys me when people bring Monica into the equation. True is, Marvel relegated her to a C/D-List position long before CM Carol.

[Crimz]

I wonder if Marvel will keep Carol as the strongest when the time the Fox characters arrive in the MCU?

[terrancejameson]

Monica lost the name way before Carol push though.

I'm aware. It's easy to miss the message that Hybrid was trying to convey, while completely ignoring that parts I've added. The branding of the name MARVEL had a ton to do with the push Captain MARVEL to the big screen. They could have chosen to bring Monica on as the face of the MARVEL BRAND, seeing as she had the name first and she's still alive. She was looked over in to further the feminist agenda of framing the narrative from a blonde-haired, blue-eyed perspective of what what it really means to be a feminist icon. Make no mistake BRANDING had everything to do with Carol's push as Captain MARVEL and the most powerful hero of the MCU. In that way entire portrayal is at the expanse of two black women. But, I'm sure you have more reasons about why overlooking black women is an issue for another discussion. The points I made a valid. And they stand up to scrutiny because whatever it is you meant to convey, my points still stand. Even more so with your attempts to overlook them.

[TheCape]

I'm aware. It's easy to miss the message that Hybrid was trying to convey, while completely ignoring that parts I've added. The branding of the name MARVEL had a ton to do with the push Captain MARVEL to the big screen. They could have chosen to bring Monica on as the face of the MARVEL BRAND, seeing as she had the name first and she's still alive. She was looked over in to further the feminist agenda of framing the narrative from a blonde-haired, blue-eyed perspective of what what it really means to be a feminist icon. Make no mistake BRANDING had everything to do with Carol's push as Captain MARVEL and the most powerful hero of the MCU. In that way entire portrayal is at the expanse of two black women. But, I'm sure you have more reasons about why overlooking black women is an issue for another discussion. The points I made a valid. And they stand up to scrutiny because whatever it is you meant to convey, my points still stand. Even more so with your attempts to overlook them.

I didn't overlook then, i simply don't consider myself the right person too discuss racial representation, i bring the whole thing about Monica becuase you say that Carol took the identity for her, when she didn't, no one was using it and Monica lost it to Mar-Vell's son from the future and Rick Jones long time ago, wheter the story is good is my main worry at the end of the day, in this case, i think that Carol push has been a dud in more than one way for plenty of reasons, i just don't feel the Monica really factors on this.

[terrancejameson]

I didn't overlook then, i simply don't consider myself the right person too discuss racial representation, i bring the whole thing about Monica becuase you say that Carol took the identity for her, when she didn't, no one was using it and Monica lost it to Mar-Vell's son from the future and Rick Jones long time ago, wheter the story is good is my main worry at the end of the day, in this case, i think that Carol push has been a dud in more than one way for plenty of reasons, i just don't feel the Monica really factors on this.

Lol you just said you get annoyed when people bring Monica up, but you still haven't acknowledged the context in which I specifically used her. There was a clear reason that directly related to the valid points Hybrid made on the subject. Excuse if I don't take to your sudden change in tune of "I don't consider myself the right person to discuss racial representation", but that's exactly what my argument boils down to in regards to how women, specifically black women are portrayed in the fight for women's rights. How'd you manage that? Instead of addressing the fact that the name Captain Marvel was specifically used to garner support for a legitimate superheroine push as opposed to Ms. Marvel and is now touted as the most powerful character Marvel has, it just reeks of overlooking Monica in multiple ways because she has legitimate claims to both the name Captain Marvel and marvel's most powerful character. Tell me again why it's okay for white women to overlook their complicity and complacency in the white power dynamic and especially as its applied to what it means to be a feminist icon? Remind me again, please?

[H-E-D]

It seems a little unfair to criticize Carol for being a spot that should have gone to Storm, when Carol was introduced to the MCU at a time when they couldn't use Storm.

Carol has stuck as Captain Marvel for one reason above others: Jamie McKelvie. His Captain Marvel design for Carol is just far and away the best costume any character using the name "Captain Marvel" has ever had, and in a medium and genre where visual iconography is so essential, that **** matters.

[Dark-Jacket]

Can't really comment about Larson in interviews because i rarely bother to read then. But personally speaking, i don't think that she quite capture the tough as nails militar attitude that Carol is supposed to have. But that might just be me.

I thought Captain Marvel was an okay movie, very empowering for women, but as a whole an okay movie. I just don't get the Larson hate when Scarlett Johanson gets-off scot free while she has been absolutely not convincing as black widow (seriously, she only did one face, one expression in ten years and she's supposed to be one of the deadliest human on earth so to show more focus or emotion.)

People see Brie as poker face, I saw her as confident. That's a bit different.
I agree though that movie was clumsy in telling again and again she needed to focus her feelings when she didn't show much other than confidence.

Back to Carol and not to Brie, there has been so much character shilling about a character who has been written horribly for 10 years. But there was that shilling when Storm married T'Challa. Jean, Wolverine, Psylocke and Sentry has got this too...

[powerpax]

This piece cannot be overlooked. Carol occupies the space she does in the MCU by default, not because it's what her character deserves. [...] Carol is toted as the most powerful woman or hero in the MCU because Ororo and Jean aren't available to contest her place.

This just isn't true.

If we're going to start by putting aside the external issues and look at the actual text first, as your post begins with, then let's do that. Carol Danvers has been a fluctuating cosmic-level power in the books for decades, thanks to Binary. Who made her a cosmic-tier tank? Chris Claremont. Who made her Binary? Chris Claremont. In fact, Chris Claremont is probably the only reason Carol still exists today, because he made a point of using her in the X-Men franchise (when the rest of the company had no interest) and enhancing her profile and power level more and more and more for years. He did it while still venerating his own creations, like Ororo, Jean, Rachel, et al.

I grew up reading Ororo, Jean, Carol, etc. as those books actually released, and this was always the way of things. Ororo has always been one of my all-time favorites, considerably moreso than Carol in fact because the X-Men are my first love. Monica Rambeau has always been a favorite. But Carol got leveled up in the '80s by the very same man responsible for most of the women you mention. It is never either/or with these women and it never has been. It is not a competition.

You are certainly entitled to feel it should be someone else first - that's fair and a matter of opinion. And I think external socioracial issues are a very valid discussion to have. But as far as the simple text goes, pretending this power foundation for Carol as a top-tier power level heroine was never there before the MCU is just plain incorrect.

[Maestroneto]

It seems a little unfair to criticize Carol for being a spot that should have gone to Storm, when Carol was introduced to the MCU at a time when they couldn't use Storm.

Carol has stuck as Captain Marvel for one reason above others: Jamie McKelvie. His Captain Marvel design for Carol is just far and away the best costume any character using the name "Captain Marvel" has ever had, and in a medium and genre where visual iconography is so essential, that **** matters.

But they've been using the shitty Anka update of McKelvie's design (mitts instead of gloves, booties instead of boots, a belt with clip-on sash instead of an actual sash) for 4 years now.

[H-E-D]

But they've been using the shitty Anka update of McKelvie's design (mitts instead of gloves, booties instead of boots, a belt with clip-on sash instead of an actual sash) for 4 years now.

It's still better than the rest.

[Hybrid]

It seems a little unfair to criticize Carol for being a spot that should have gone to Storm, when Carol was introduced to the MCU at a time when they couldn't use Storm.

Carol has stuck as Captain Marvel for one reason above others: Jamie McKelvie. His Captain Marvel design for Carol is just far and away the best costume any character using the name "Captain Marvel" has ever had, and in a medium and genre where visual iconography is so essential, that **** matters.

That's the entire point.

They only started pushing her like this because they couldn't use the X-Women, and it came at the cost of so many characters including (but certainly not limited to) the X-Women. Them promoting Carol as the greatest thing ever only goes back to earlier this decade, and before that she was a B-lister and treated as such by the company. It's weird to me, because Carol was meant to be the answer to Power Girl more than Wonder Woman, a strong blonde promoted for her sex appeal but not particularly important to the brand overall. She never would've been promoted this way, if they had the X-Women to begin with. The leading lady of the MCU would likely be Jean Grey, Storm or Sue (maybe even a split). Maybe that will happen, and Carol will be quietly shifted away, kinda like when they tried to force the Inhumans when they couldn't use the mutants.

[Snoop Dogg]

Clip-on sash makes her silhouette less generic and they stopped using the fugly mohawk helmet.

Carol has stuck as Captain Marvel because they gave the title to someone who can hold a series, as amusing as PAD wasting time and then whining about getting cancelled again was.