Do the best women of Marvel come from the X-Men brand?

[powerpax]

Carol was the underdog for decades. I'm just not clear on why it's some great injustice that she finally got her due. She wasn't the reason the X-Men weren't being featured.

[Hybrid]

Carol was the underdog for decades. I'm just not clear on why it's some great injustice that she finally got her due. She wasn't the reason the X-Men weren't being featured.

Because they went about it wrong and turned so many people away from her. She may not have been the reason X-Men weren't in the MCU, but that was it -- they only promoted her this way because they didn't have the X-Men at the time. It doesn't helped that Brie Larson is a bad fit for the role visually and has no charisma, imo.

[spirit2011]

Carol was the underdog for decades. I'm just not clear on why it's some great injustice that she finally got her due. She wasn't the reason the X-Men weren't being featured.

Emma had the same push an dno one complained

[powerpax]

Because they went about it wrong and turned so many people away from her. She may not have been the reason X-Men weren't in the MCU, but that was it -- they only promoted her this way because they didn't have the X-Men at the time. It doesn't helped that Brie Larson is a bad fit for the role visually and has no charisma, imo.

Okay, well, we're going to have to disagree with all of that and leave it there.

[Maestroneto]

Carol was the underdog for decades. I'm just not clear on why it's some great injustice that she finally got her due. She wasn't the reason the X-Men weren't being featured.

Because of stories like Civil War II where she was turned into a fascist who locks people up without having committed any crimes while simultaneously solicits for her solo would state “YASSSSS KWEEN Carol is now the most popular hero in the Marvel Universe!” It was all very poorly handled, just like with the Inhumans. Except the Inhumans never landed on Kevin Feige’s desk.

She also told Magneto that he needs to stop whining about the Holocaust.

[powerpax]

Because of stories like Civil War II where she was turned into a fascist who locks people up without having committed any crimes while simultaneously solicits for her solo would state “YASSSSS KWEEN Carol is now the most popular hero in the Marvel Universe!” It was all very poorly handled, just like with the Inhumans. Except the Inhumans never landed on Kevin Feige’s desk.

Like I said, I think she's had some poor stories in recent years. CW2 wasn't good for anyone. But I don't think that is a direct byproduct or consequence of her come-up. I think that was the right thing to do. Again, Wonder Woman or any other marquee character have their share of issues with those problems over time at either Marvel or DC. Comes with the territory.

As for Carol vs. the Inhumans in the MCU as major players: One concept works in principle, one never would have. JMO.

[Electricmastro]

Hmm, well I think that would leave women such as these, which I still think makes for quite a cast.

[Hybrid]

Yeah, there are some cool female characters that aren't tied to X-Men, but X-Women just seem to be in their own league. It doesn't help that as covered earlier, the MCU has really struggled in having memorable and well-liked female heroines. It's a combination of not having their best ones, and the ones they portray being so-so, leading to people complaining about it.

[Ricochet Rita]

Marvel has almost always done a great job depicting their female characters as equals and 'strong.' Carol used to be a more well rounded character but they took the most generic parts about her and emphasized those (being a strong female, being tough, not taking any gruff from a man, etc). To me, those things are generic and can be put on any female character and that in turn makes THEM a completely bland, generic character. Focus on her being a natural leader. Focus on her overcoming her alcoholism. Focus on her struggle with the the past and her inner turmoil with Rogue WHILE still being a strong female, being tough, etc. Instead I feel like Carol has just been turned into a generic I Am Woman Hear Me Roar character.

With the main X-Women (Storm, Rogue, Jean) they are EXTREMELY complex and deep characters. These ladies are SO much more than being a strong female character. Storm has claustrophobia. Rogue can't physically touch someone. Jean battles to not listen to everyone around her. Storm is a phenomenal leader. Rogue struggles with letting go of the past. Jean struggles to not show her insecurities. I could go on and on with the X-Women. They are so complex and deep and I totally think the best women of Marvel come from the X-Brand.

Completely agree. What I love of CC's female characters is that they're persons. Not just 'women', strong or not, but persons the same as male characters are.

Have you ever noticed that a lot of (if not most of) CC's run issues from the 80's 'second wave' (that is, since Shadowcat, Rogue and TNM) pass the Bechdel test without any problem? How many superheroes comic-books reach this goal, now or then?

[The tall man]

Hmm, well I think that would leave women such as these, which I still think makes for quite a cast.

Exactly! All these amazing non x marvel women who are first class heroes in their own right. Outside of Storm, Jean, Rogue and possibly Betsy and Emma as the a-list x-women you've got Lorna and Ali as the b-list. After that you have the drop off, Magik and Dani I guess but who else? Yes the x- ladies are great but marvel as a whole has many more excellent female characters that equal their mutant counterparts. Just to name a few Sue, Jen, Jan, Carol, Monica, Felicia, Elsa, Wanda, Jane, Crystal, Electra and Natasha just to name a few. Then non powered women like MJ comes to mind, so its not a competition between the two groups, all are great and should be written as such; flaws and failures along with successes and triumps.

[mikeb]

Whatever the corporate strategy, Carol was a valued Avenger with a long, long history and I had no problem with them graduating her to a major new role. She had always been a legacy character who now took the rightful mantle. It would've made sense with or without WW's box office.

Legacy character? Carol was nothing but a minor supporting character in the Capt Marvel solo series until Marvel felt it needed a feminist hero to exploit the 1970's Women's rights movement. Her solo lasted only 23 issues before it was canceled. Then she ended up spending nearly 15 years of semi-exile in space. Rick Jones is more of a Legacy character than Carol is. It wasn't until Kurt Busiek brought her out of exile she became popular.
Funny thing, though. Ever since Carol started calling herself CM, her book has been canceled and relaunched what 5 or six times? The last issue before the Life of Capt Marvel mini sold less than 16000 copies.

[Snoop Dogg]

Captain Marvel has been a trade seller since KSD that relaunches as much as Iron Man or Captain America. When something is making Marvel lose money they don't keep relaunching it to lose more money, they put it on the table, a concept I am actually explaining in the year of our Lord 2019. It is correct that Busiek started her ascension, though.

[powerpax]

Legacy character?

She was close to and inspired by Mar-Vell, and operated as a hero in his name which led to Ms. Marvel which in turn led to Captain Marvel. She was a legacy in that way.

She spent a long time as the underdog and a cult favorite who Marvel editorial loved to shit on. She gained fans in that era because Claremont was always partial to her - through her years of treatment by Claremont both as Binary and a support player and as the persona in Rogue and Logan's minds. It was a long road, but it led to Busiek, then to Bendis who also kept her very prominent even when she wasn't in his main books, and so on and so forth. She earned her place as a core Avenger long before she fully took the CM mantle, AFAIC.

[Wind Rider]

Short answer: YES. To a great extent thanks to Chris Claremont.

Well said and agreed.

I do like some of the non-X ladies, like Crystal & Misty Knight, but CC knew how to write the X-ladies in a way that strongly resonated with me. Especially Storm, Psylocke & Rogue. A whole other league imho.

[davetvs]

Any top ten women in comics list has to include (at least) Storm, Jean, Rogue, and arguably Betsy or Emma. So yes.