Do the best women of Marvel come from the X-Men brand?

[Hybrid]

No, I never said anyone deserves death threats, I paid little thought to that point. I was referring to the resistance and backlash to Captain Carol, and using the fact there's none to Wonder Woman as proof.

Hell, when the X-Men make their debut, and if Jean Grey actually is done justice after Fox consistently did her bad (I bet she will), I feel like a lot of people will use her as the measuring stick against Captain Carol. Same with all the other X-Women. If portrayed like in the comics, they'll point out how Captain Carol just can't compare. I wouldn't mind Jean being promoted as the new MCU leading lady, tbh, it feels a lot more of a natural fit. Same with Sue.

Anyways, no one deserves death threats, but it's kind of unavoidable overall given the toxic political environment we live in.

[TheCape]

Nerdz loved Brie in Scott Pilgrim and Community. It wasn't until Captain Marvel came out that they suddenly detested her "lack of charisma" (which would mostly be the fault of the admittedly lacking writing/directing directing anyway).

Wow, i just realized that she was Envy in Scott Pilgrim, she did a a pretty good job there.

[powerpax]

The "Brie Larson is unlikable/unpopular with her costars/etc" mythos is entirely an alt right/incel fantasy invention propagated by nonsensical out of context supercut videos, conspiracy theories and stupid YouTube thumbnails based on nothing substantive at all. These folks always conjure up a magical worldview that explains everything but often defies objective reality. It's fine to dislike the movie or dislike her performance or whatever else. But you're not entitled to your own alternative facts.

CM was neither the best Marvel movie nor anywhere near the worst. It was a perfectly serviceable first Marvel flick. I preferred it to Doctor Strange, who IMO didn't fully come into his own until Infinity War. I liked Brie just fine. And it did well box office-wise, hence a sequel already in dev.

And yes - there was Wonder Woman backlash. It's always the same monotonous litany of bullshit. But it hasn't stopped either WW or CM, and it won't. Not that that's what matters - what matters is that the people who want to believe these female-centric superhero films are about to crash and burn (but don't) keep clicking on YouTube videos telling them all about the magical alternative reality about to unfold before their eyes, and how Captain Marvel/Brie Larson will soon get her comeuppance, etc. It's wish fulfillment, it's a clickbait con game. Alt right YTers tell these guys what they want to hear, and they believe it and come back to comics forums and repeat the gospel they got on YouTube.

[RachelGrey]

The "Brie Larson is unlikable/unpopular with her costars/etc" mythos is entirely an alt right/incel fantasy invention propagated by nonsensical out of context supercut videos, conspiracy theories and stupid YouTube thumbnails based on nothing substantive at all. These folks always conjure up a magical worldview that explains everything but often defies objective reality. It's fine to dislike the movie or dislike her performance or whatever else. But you're not entitled to your own alternative facts.

CM was neither the best Marvel movie nor anywhere near the worst. It was a perfectly serviceable first Marvel flick. I preferred it to Doctor Strange, who IMO didn't fully come into his own until Infinity War. I liked Brie just fine. And it did well box office-wise, hence a sequel already in dev.

And yes - there was Wonder Woman backlash. It's always the same monotonous litany of bullshit. But it hasn't stopped either WW or CM, and it won't. Not that that's what matters - what matters is that the people who want to believe these female-centric superhero films are about to crash and burn (but don't) keep clicking on YouTube videos telling them all about the magical alternative reality about to unfold before their eyes, and how Captain Marvel/Brie Larson will soon get her comeuppance, etc. It's wish fulfillment, it's a clickbait con game. Alt right YTers tell these guys what they want to hear, and they believe it and come back to comics forums and repeat the gospel they got on YouTube.

lol, all you have to do is look at the endless pictures of young girls dressing up as Captain Marvel and you can see why the movie did well. The Incel/MRA people think they are a majority but they really aren't, they are a bunch of vocal whiners who are crying about the fact that women have rights and independent thought. There is a fantasy among that crowd that believes women have no place in geek culture, and they are wrong. I played world of warcraft and 4 out of the 6 guilds I was in had women running the guild and raid leading and they were good at it. There are women gamers who can easily kick a man's butt in esports without any issues at all. There are women writing and drawing comics just as there are women reading and collecting comics.

I stopped at my local comic shop the other week (trying desperately to see if I could buy a physical copy of house of x) they were getting ready to do a magic the gathering tournament and I would say there was at minimum 25% of the crowd signing up for the tournament were women.

These idiots think that geek culture belongs to them, but women have been part of geek culture for years. Heck look at Dungeons and Dragons which has exploded in popularity recently and some of the best Dungeon Masters are women.

I loved Jane Foster as Thor, I loved Captain Marvel, I love when Jean, Emma, and Storm rule over the X-Men, I love when Susan Storm gets to shine in the fantastic four. My favourite characters are all female and I love that they are prominent and strong in the comics. I love that Brie was so keen on playing Captain Marvel and how she realizes how many little girls look up to her like she is a real super hero.

[PsychoEFrost]

lol, all you have to do is look at the endless pictures of young girls dressing up as Captain Marvel and you can see why the movie did well. The Incel/MRA people think they are a majority but they really aren't, they are a bunch of vocal whiners who are crying about the fact that women have rights and independent thought. There is a fantasy among that crowd that believes women have no place in geek culture, and they are wrong. I played world of warcraft and 4 out of the 6 guilds I was in had women running the guild and raid leading and they were good at it. There are women gamers who can easily kick a man's butt in esports without any issues at all. There are women writing and drawing comics just as there are women reading and collecting comics.

I stopped at my local comic shop the other week (trying desperately to see if I could buy a physical copy of house of x) they were getting ready to do a magic the gathering tournament and I would say there was at minimum 25% of the crowd signing up for the tournament were women.

These idiots think that geek culture belongs to them, but women have been part of geek culture for years. Heck look at Dungeons and Dragons which has exploded in popularity recently and some of the best Dungeon Masters are women.

I loved Jane Foster as Thor, I loved Captain Marvel, I love when Jean, Emma, and Storm rule over the X-Men, I love when Susan Storm gets to shine in the fantastic four. My favourite characters are all female and I love that they are prominent and strong in the comics. I love that Brie was so keen on playing Captain Marvel and how she realizes how many little girls look up to her like she is a real super hero.

You're lucky. My area has a couple Magic tournaments a week. Around 100 players. Only 4 of them are women. One of them has gotten so sick of guys hitting on her that her playmat says "I'm not here to date, flirt, or fuck. I'm here to destroy you in cards."

[Hybrid]

Anyways, I didn't mean to start any trouble. I just find Captain Carol's push to be artificial and to only have been born out of a lack of their best characters, which rubbed me wrong. I don't find Brie to be good for this role, regardless if she was good elsewhere, and to me that's what matters. I mean, I think Jesse Eisenberg was great in The Social Network, but he didn't fit Lex Luthor to me, just to give you an example.

But let's get back on topic, are we in agreement that the best heroines of Marvel are from X-Men?

[RachelGrey]

Anyways, I didn't mean to start any trouble. I just find Captain Carol's push to be artificial and to only have been born out of a lack of their best characters, which rubbed me wrong. I don't find Brie to be good for this role, regardless if she was good elsewhere, and to me that's what matters. I mean, I think Jesse Eisenberg was great in The Social Network, but he didn't fit Lex Luthor to me, just to give you an example.

But let's get back on topic, are we in agreement that the best heroines of Marvel are from X-Men?

Yep Emma, Jean, Orroro, Rachel, Betsy, Anne Marie, Kitty, Illyana, Dani, Xian, Rahne, Ruth (I miss Blindfold).

The X-Men have more female characters than the Avengers, Justice League, Legion, Titans, Young Justice, and young Avengers.

The X-women have some of the biggest fandoms to!

[Snoop Dogg]

There are three women on Nextwave and two of them are Avengers. Avengers win.

The real question is if #1 is Carol or Janet. I'm bringing that to Parliament for an inquiry.

[H-E-D]

There are three women on Nextwave and two of them are Avengers. Avengers win.

The real question is if #1 is Carol or Janet. I'm bringing that to Parliament for an inquiry.

Janet needs a McKelvie costume.

[Sutekh]

There are three women on Nextwave and two of them are Avengers. Avengers win.

??? Monica is an Avenger. Tabitha is an X-chica. And then there's Elsa, who is, AFAIK, not really affiliated with either...

The real question is if #1 is Carol or Janet. I'm bringing that to Parliament for an inquiry.

The answer is Monica. Then maybe Jen Walters. Then Janet and Wanda, Sersi and Crystal, Natasha and Bobbi, etc. Carol isn't the bottom of the list, that's reserved for Magdalene, Deathcry and Mantis.

Some of my favorites tho, are barely Avengers, having been so for such a short time, like Yellowjacket 2/Rita DeMara, Spider-Woman 2/Julia Carpenter, Moondragon and Songbird.

[H-E-D]

I mean, you know what else made over a billion? The Last Jedi. Is that suddenly good? ...

...yes? Not because of the box office, but yeah, the Last Jedi is good.


I probably shouldn't be opening this can of worms lol.

Right after Larson said "Men aren't the target audience" for the movie. All of a sudden, she's literally Satan who wants all men to die. Funny how that works.

The thing is, the movie has faults. Pacing is awkward in a lot of spots. The plot holes are fairly substantial. The script was carried pretty heavily by Jackson and Larson.

But when the same old MRA talking points get brought up, I start losing my cool. A fictional character's portrayal is not worth death threats.

Yeah, I didn't notice most of the admittedly undeniable flaws of CM until after I'd finished watching the movie because of how good Brie and SLJ were. Overall I felt like you could just tell that they didn't have the scheduling flexibility to give them work time to work on the script, due to wanting it out before Endgame.

[Agent Z]

To answer the question, I don't think the X-women are the best Marvel female characters but I do agree they are the most popular.

[terrancejameson]

Anyways, I didn't mean to start any trouble. I just find Captain Carol's push to be artificial and to only have been born out of a lack of their best characters, which rubbed me wrong. I don't find Brie to be good for this role, regardless if she was good elsewhere, and to me that's what matters. I mean, I think Jesse Eisenberg was great in The Social Network, but he didn't fit Lex Luthor to me, just to give you an example.

But let's get back on topic, are we in agreement that the best heroines of Marvel are from X-Men?

I think the direction you've steered the thread is a pretty natural shift. The points you've personally made are spot on. So much so that the folks that reimagined her weren't shy about addressing the elephant in the room.
https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/19/17...-sue-deconnick

"As Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel, Carol has led the Avengers, adventured with the X-Men and saved the world over and over again. She’s one of the most powerful Marvel superheroes who isn’t simply a god. And in the MCU, where characters like Storm and Jean Grey don’t (yet) exist, she’s inarguably the most powerful superheroine around."

This piece cannot be overlooked. Carol occupies the space she does in the MCU by default, not because it's what her character deserves. The people responsible for bringing her closer to a real world heroine acknowledge this willingly. This isn't about putting two women against one another for the top whatever spot. This is about simply acknowledging what is. Carol is toted as the most powerful woman or hero in the MCU because Ororo and Jean aren't available to contest her place. That is calling a spade a spade. Its always kinda weird as these conversations unfold because of the "stop pitting women against each other" vibe that comes along. From my pov the really important part never gets addressed. It's always a variation on the same conversation.

While we sit and debate why Brie Larson's Captain Marvel deserves a place in the MCU, the quote directly informs why she doesn't deserve the place she was given. It's no different from the Avengers having their given place because the X-Men were unavailable. Brie Larson and her portrayal of Captain Marvel as far as the feminist agenda goes, falls on the deaf ears of the black women she had to step on to get to her place of personified white femininity. Not only was the name Captain Marvel taken from Monica Rambeau and given to Carol Danvers so she could run around and build a reputation as the most powerful marvel hero on the scene. Monica dwarfs her, but she was nerfed to make her more human in a time when women are supposedly evening out the power dynamic.

Then we have Storm that's clearly more deserving of the spot as Marvel's premiere heroine because of what she represents. For everything that Carol represents, Ororo represents and more. White feminists and black feminists often don't see eye to eye because black women have always had a contentious relationship with mainstream femininity. Their's has always been denied. The darker the black woman, the more likely she is to be denied her feminine nature. The courser her hair is, the greater the likelihood she will be denied the shield that mainstream feminist agendas afford white "women". When feminism was getting its first push for "women" to enter the workforce and get out of the kitchen, it was black women that were being cooks and nannies. Black and white women have never been in the position to want for the same things. Black women are still fighting for their rights to be feminine all while pictures have been painted for decades of black women too masculine and therefore deserving of the brutality committed against them. White women have been complicit in their silence. The only time a slave woman's femininity was brought up was when the eyes of the slave master fell upon her body in lustful ways. Other than that, black women had the same work load as black men.

None of this means Carol isn't deserving of her own place in the MCU. It means she isn't qualified enough for the place she occupies now. She was given her place over two black women that embody everything she does and more. The worst part is we're expected to believe that she inspired two women of color to take up her brand of superhero business. I would say I'm surprised if the same thing didn't happen with Fox's Storm and Mystique's farce of a dynamic. Why do white women love to use their brand of white supremacy to deny black women their rights as women? And why is it such common place for people to ignore it?

[Snoop Dogg]

??? Monica is an Avenger. Tabitha is an X-chica. And then there's Elsa, who is, AFAIK, not really affiliated with either...

Avengers World AXIS tie-ins.

[butterflykyss]

I think the direction you've steered the thread is a pretty natural shift. The points you've personally made are spot on. So much so that the folks that reimagined her weren't shy about addressing the elephant in the room.
https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/19/17...-sue-deconnick

"As Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel, Carol has led the Avengers, adventured with the X-Men and saved the world over and over again. She’s one of the most powerful Marvel superheroes who isn’t simply a god. And in the MCU, where characters like Storm and Jean Grey don’t (yet) exist, she’s inarguably the most powerful superheroine around."

This piece cannot be overlooked. Carol occupies the space she does in the MCU by default, not because it's what her character deserves. The people responsible for bringing her closer to a real world heroine acknowledge this willingly. This isn't about putting two women against one another for the top whatever spot. This is about simply acknowledging what is. Carol is toted as the most powerful woman or hero in the MCU because Ororo and Jean aren't available to contest her place. That is calling a spade a spade. Its always kinda weird as these conversations unfold because of the "stop pitting women against each other" vibe that comes along. From my pov the really important part never gets addressed. It's always a variation on the same conversation.

While we sit and debate why Brie Larson's Captain Marvel deserves a place in the MCU, the quote directly informs why she doesn't deserve the place she was given. It's no different from the Avengers having their given place because the X-Men were unavailable. Brie Larson and her portrayal of Captain Marvel as far as the feminist agenda goes, falls on the deaf ears of the black women she had to step on to get to her place of personified white femininity. Not only was the name Captain Marvel taken from Monica Rambeau and given to Carol Danvers so she could run around and build a reputation as the most powerful marvel hero on the scene. Monica dwarfs her, but she was nerfed to make her more human in a time when women are supposedly evening out the power dynamic.

Then we have Storm that's clearly more deserving of the spot as Marvel's premiere heroine because of what she represents. For everything that Carol represents, Ororo represents and more. White feminists and black feminists often don't see eye to eye because black women have always had a contentious relationship with mainstream femininity. Their's has always been denied. The darker the black woman, the more likely she is to be denied her feminine nature. The courser her hair is, the greater the likelihood she will be denied the shield that mainstream feminist agendas afford white "women". When feminism was getting its first push for "women" to enter the workforce and get out of the kitchen, it was black women that were being cooks and nannies. Black and white women have never been in the position to want for the same things. Black women are still fighting for their rights to be feminine all while pictures have been painted for decades of black women too masculine and therefore deserving of the brutality committed against them. White women have been complicit in their silence. The only time a slave woman's femininity was brought up was when the eyes of the slave master fell upon her body in lustful ways. Other than that, black women had the same work load as black men.

None of this means Carol isn't deserving of her own place in the MCU. It means she isn't qualified enough for the place she occupies now. She was given her place over two black women that embody everything she does and more. The worst part is we're expected to believe that she inspired two women of color to take up her brand of superhero business. I would say I'm surprised if the same thing didn't happen with Fox's Storm and Mystique's farce of a dynamic. Why do white women love to use their brand of white supremacy to deny black women their rights as women? And why is it such common place for people to ignore it?

hey now you better speak this truth!!