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  1. #46
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Whoa, did you just dis a classic story?
    Yes, because it's not very good and primarily a toy ad. II isn't very good either, but at least it's an anthology with a handful of good stories across the main series and tie-ins.

  2. #47
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Secret Wars is bad and Spider-Man's supporting cast includes an astronaut.
    You didn't enjoy Spider-Man schooling the X-Men ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Yes, because it's not very good and primarily a toy ad. II isn't very good either, but at least it's an anthology with a handful of good stories across the main series and tie-ins.
    I think something can be enjoyable and fun even if it's primarily a toy ad (I mean, that's like 80% of why most action cartoons are made).

    It wasn't a high-class or sophisticated narrative but I don't think it needed to be.

  3. #48
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Secret Wars is a fun summer blockbuster with a wide variety of superheroes over 30 years before we had Endgame. It also has some of my favorite moments, like Spider-Man wrecking Titania, Hulk holding up mountain, and anything Doctor Doom.

  4. #49
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    You didn't enjoy Spider-Man schooling the X-Men ?

    I think something can be enjoyable and fun even if it's primarily a toy ad (I mean, that's like 80% of why most action cartoons are made).

    It wasn't a high-class or sophisticated narrative but I don't think it needed to be.
    I agree, I just don't think Shooter's script was up to the task of handling all three million characters and the very weird plot.

  5. #50
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Most of my faults with it were at the beginning, with some pacing issues and the X-Men not trusting the others for no good reason. Overall, I liked the way it all came together, with different teams like the X-Men, Fantastic Four and Avengers, and individuals like Hulk, Magneto and Spider-Man, all joining forces against all the villains. The artwork was solid, the action scenes were great, everyone got a moment to shine (not easy given how many characters they had to juggle), and there were some neat interactions between the different characters. It was flawed, sure, but very enjoyable.

    I think that's the general consensus overall. It certainly isn't widely seen as "bad", and the streamlined origin in TAS was likely in the interest of time.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Secret Wars is bad...
    Hickman, Zdarsky, Ta-Nehisi-Coates, the Russo Brothers among others will have words with thee. All of them got turned on Marvel thanks to that. No other comic really introduced and provided a gateway to all of the Marvel Universe at once quite like Secret Wars did.

    Secret Wars '84 is one of the greatest stories ever done by Marvel. The first and best event story. The art by Zeck and Layton is amazing and the way characters and groups interact and bounce off each other issue-by-issue is unparalleled.

    And of course it's gonna be the next event story arc of the MCU. Doctor Doom will be the next big villain and Doom is the protagonist of Secret Wars '84 and 2015 so it's the logical glue to sell the whole "We got the FF and the X-Men, but we also have the Avengers, and what's the one big story where they (and Dr. Strange) and whoever else we introduce, play off each other."

  7. #52
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I think it was Al Ewing's first Marvel book through UK reprints, too.

  8. #53
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    It's a little frustrating that no piece of Spider-Man media has had the symbiote arrive to Earth on the meteor The Looter found. Two jailbirds with one stone.

    (Has The Looter never appeared in a cartoon or video game? Why not??)

  9. #54
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I agree, I just don't think Shooter's script was up to the task of handling all three million characters and the very weird plot.
    Personally I think Shooter was the one who made that work as well as it did. But to each their own .

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Personally I think Shooter was the one who made that work as well as it did.
    Jim Shooter was a terrific writer. His run on Legion proves that. And Secret Wars is well done.

    Shooter is especially a good writer of Doctor Doom, whether in Secret Wars or in that forgotten Superman-Spider-Man crossover which was basically an excuse to put Superman against Doom (and man do they work perfectly as foils for one another). I think Doom was Shooter's favorite character because he approved 2 OGN for Doom and in Secret Wars he foreshadowed Triumph and Torment with Doom talking of using the Beyonder's power to free Mephisto (Stern said that Shooter commissioned it from him at the start of the '80s but Stern couldn't get to writing it until later and meanwhile both Shooter and Stern foreshadowed it when they could).

    Shooter tends to get a lot of hate but happily people are revising their views on the man who is easily the greatest EIC after Stan Lee.

    Shooter said that the main reason he wrote Secret Wars was because any writer he gave it to would use it as a chance to play favorites. He cited Claremont and Byrne's rivalry as the main reason. Claremont had written Dr. Doom in an X-men story who Byrne in his FF run retconned into a Doombot to Claremont's fury. Basically if Secret Wars was written by Claremont you would have X-Men Wars starring the Marvel Universe and if it was by Byrne, then the X-Men would be 2 issue cameos at best.

    So Shooter decided he had to do a comprehensive revue where all major characters, and teams got a chance to shine. And he did a terrific job for the most part. And hey, he put Monica Rambeau (the still-new Captain Marvel) there and Jim Rhodes in the Iron Man costume and both of them were treated with respect there.

  11. #56
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Jim Shooter was a terrific writer. His run on Legion proves that. And Secret Wars is well done.

    Shooter is especially a good writer of Doctor Doom, whether in Secret Wars or in that forgotten Superman-Spider-Man crossover which was basically an excuse to put Superman against Doom (and man do they work perfectly as foils for one another). I think Doom was Shooter's favorite character because he approved 2 OGN for Doom and in Secret Wars he foreshadowed Triumph and Torment with Doom talking of using the Beyonder's power to free Mephisto (Stern said that Shooter commissioned it from him at the start of the '80s but Stern couldn't get to writing it until later and meanwhile both Shooter and Stern foreshadowed it when they could).

    Shooter tends to get a lot of hate but happily people are revising their views on the man who is easily the greatest EIC after Stan Lee.

    Shooter said that the main reason he wrote Secret Wars was because any writer he gave it to would use it as a chance to play favorites. He cited Claremont and Byrne's rivalry as the main reason. Claremont had written Dr. Doom in an X-men story who Byrne in his FF run retconned into a Doombot to Claremont's fury. Basically if Secret Wars was written by Claremont you would have X-Men Wars starring the Marvel Universe and if it was by Byrne, then the X-Men would be 2 issue cameos at best.

    So Shooter decided he had to do a comprehensive revue where all major characters, and teams got a chance to shine. And he did a terrific job for the most part. And hey, he put Monica Rambeau (the still-new Captain Marvel) there and Jim Rhodes in the Iron Man costume and both of them were treated with respect there.
    Shooter was one of those guys whose hard earned demeanor and strict deadlines were a means to an end in the best way. He oversaw the development of several classic and incredible comic runs that have yet to be topped to this day. He kept his writers and artists on their deadlines and in line with an actual editorial strategy. He made sure they were making comics. I'll take his editorial style over anyone at Marvel in the last ten years. At least then most of the line would be solid, and not just "readable". So Shooter writing "Secret Wars" and doing a damn fine job doesn't surprise me.
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  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Shooter was one of those guys whose hard earned demeanor and strict deadlines were a means to an end in the best way. He oversaw the development of several classic and incredible comic runs that have yet to be topped to this day. He kept his writers and artists on their deadlines and in line with an actual editorial strategy. He made sure they were making comics. I'll take his editorial style over anyone at Marvel in the last ten years. At least then most of the line would be solid, and not just "readable". So Shooter writing "Secret Wars" and doing a damn fine job doesn't surprise me.
    Ron Frenz said that Jim Shooter was personally quite affable. When he was young and starting out, Shooter who visited a convention took time to carefully go over his drawings and offer honest feedback and then tell Frenz that he'll call him in a year's time (and he did).

    Other writers also liked Shooter. Frank Miller, Simonson, Roger Stern in particular. Claremont had more mixed feelings but later admitted that Shooter made things better. John Byrne though doesn't have a kind word to say about Shooter but then Byrne doesn't do kindness well.

    Just think of his regime -- Claremont's X-Men, Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor, Roger Stern in the Avengers, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, Michelinie on Iron Man, Byrne on FF (though the latter won't give him credit).

    And of course more than that, Shooter created a royalties program for Marvel allowing writers and artists to get percentage of comics sales for the first time ever. That's far more than Lee ever did (though the latter giving credits for the full team was a major step in the '60s).

  13. #58
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Ron Frenz said that Jim Shooter was personally quite affable. When he was young and starting out, Shooter who visited a convention took time to carefully go over his drawings and offer honest feedback and then tell Frenz that he'll call him in a year's time (and he did).

    Other writers also liked Shooter. Frank Miller, Simonson, Roger Stern in particular. Claremont had more mixed feelings but later admitted that Shooter made things better. John Byrne though doesn't have a kind word to say about Shooter but then Byrne doesn't do kindness well.

    Just think of his regime -- Claremont's X-Men, Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor, Roger Stern in the Avengers, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, Michelinie on Iron Man, Byrne on FF (though the latter won't give him credit).

    And of course more than that, Shooter created a royalties program for Marvel allowing writers and artists to get percentage of comics sales for the first time ever. That's far more than Lee ever did (though the latter giving credits for the full team was a major step in the '60s).
    Exactly. I've yet to understand why Shooter was so disliked. Is it because he actually made them work and be professionals? Lol
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  14. #59
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Yeah, Jim Shooter definitely changed the comic book industry and gave us a "golden age" of storytelling, maturity and creativity in the comic book medium that still hasn't quite been matched. In fact, when he couldn't get Marvel back, he founded Valiant Comics, and that was easily among the best of the dark age and one of my favorite "alternate superhero" universes.

    I think part of the hate was as you described, he "micro-managed" the staff by forcing them to work on a professional level. I'm not exactly sure how the whole industry works, as I'm not in (though I hope to be one day!), but I always got the impression that the writers and artists were kinda like a "club", a sort of relaxed environment, and are all friends with each other. The conflicts like Alan Moore vs. Grant Morrison or Chris Claremont vs. John Byrne are the exception, not the rule.

    The bad side of this, of course, is early Image Comics. That was this taken to an extreme, and I think the awfulness of early Image speaks for itself.

    Really, the only fault I have with Shooter as far as the stories under him go is that he apparently enforced a blanket ban on swearing even as comics weren't really kids stuff anymore. It's why Chris Claremont had to come up with all sorts of creative words and insults, because Shooter wouldn't let him swear. Not really a "bad" thing, but rather arbitrary when you think about it. When you consider how mature, violent, and sexual the comics under him could get at times, especially in the X-Men books (which always seem to be the area of Marvel where writers and artists can explore their fetishes without judgment), the ban on saying "damn" or "ass" seems rather silly.

  15. #60
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Yeah, and I agree Hybrid. I'd rather an editor micromanaged and we get good books than one who doesn't
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