Does anyone else hate when people call mutant racism in the MU a "plot hole"?

[Snoop Dogg]

Look at Cloud 9...she just wanted to use her powers to fly around and have fun. She was drafted and trained as a sniper. When the SHRA ended she tore up her registration card and took off.

She was trained because she wanted to keep flying when she could have just registered and not done so, and once you graduated and got your license you weren't forced onto a fifty-states team.

[Chris0013]

She was trained because she wanted to keep flying when she could have just registered and not done so, and once you graduated and got your license you weren't forced onto a fifty-states team.

She wasn't trained, given an ID card and let go to do as she pleased. They forced her into service as an operative.

[Snoop Dogg]

She wasn't trained, given an ID card and let go to do as she pleased. They forced her into service as an operative.

You could leave after graduation. It was like transferring into employment. Go-- Ugh, "Gorilla Girl's" plan was to graduate and go home.

[Chris0013]

You could leave after graduation. It was like transferring into employment. Go-- Ugh, "Gorilla Girl's" plan was to graduate and go home.

Apparently not everyone was given that option. Look up Cloud 9's history.

[Killerbee911]

I may have misunderstood your post. Not sure is you were advocating for the SHRA as it was or were condemning it as it was.

My point was the SHRA went too far basically enslaving all superhumans. I could see an SHRA that was regulating those who want to do the super hero thing...but leaves others alone unless their powers are a danger to themselves or others.

For all intents, SHRA was a good thing and actually for what happens inside of Marvel uni brought more good than bad. To have drama and to keep the status quo SHRA needs to be flawed but lets say you tweak SHRA

1. If you want to use your powers for general work or be superhero you need to be registered to prove you can use powers safely.
2. Babies are registred from birth into a national registry for the X-gene. When you reach your teens you have the option of going to the national center to artificial induce your ability.
3. You are not required to go to the center but if anyone or thing is harm by a person who is not registered, you will be prosecuted harshly

Something like this covers most of the loopholes while allowing people with abilities to live freely. You don't have register as an active user and it is not a crime to use your power but if someone is harmed by you accidentally or on purpose, you are not registered you will be sentenced harshly as opposed if you are registered and do the same thing the outcome wouldn't be as harsh. Good functioning laws for mutants and superhumans would change the discussion from a group argument to an individual argument. It is hard to argue all mutants are dangerous when most are registered and proven not to be a threat to everyone.

[Chris0013]

For all intents, SHRA was a good thing and actually for what happens inside of Marvel uni brought more good than bad. To have drama and to keep the status quo SHRA needs to be flawed but lets say you tweak SHRA

1. If you want to use your powers for general work or be superhero you need to be registered to prove you can use powers safely.
2. Babies are registred from birth into a national registry for the X-gene. When you reach your teens you have the option of going to the national center to artificial induce your ability.
3. You are not required to go to the center but if anyone or thing is harm by a person who is not registered, you will be prosecuted harshly

Something like this covers most of the loopholes while allowing people with abilities to live freely. You don't have register as an active user and it is not a crime to use your power but if someone is harmed by you accidentally or on purpose, you are not registered you will be sentenced harshly as opposed if you are registered and do the same thing the outcome wouldn't be as harsh. Good functioning laws for mutants and superhumans would change the discussion from a group argument to an individual argument. It is hard to argue all mutants are dangerous when most are registered and proven not to be a threat to everyone.

I would have to say "no" to 2 and 3.

If you want to use your powers as a superhero then you would need to prove you have control of them, you would have to be licensed and you would have to carry insurance to cover damage that is your responsibility.

As far as simply registering someone with powers I think that goes too far. If you have powers you should be trained in their use...but if you are not working as a superhero then you do not have to get licensed, or carry insurance. If something happens where you have to use your powers in a situation...standard self defense laws apply. Meaning if you are not working as a super...but you are in the bank when someone comes in to rob it...you can be justified in using your powers to stop it without needing to be licensed.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Only because it is obviously not a plot hole. There are people in the U.S. who think they are superior to others due to something as inane and meaningless as melanin deficiency. Some of those folks think having babies with people that have high melanin concentration is "white genocide". Why would it be at all unbelievable that some people would freak out and claim they were being genocided at the thought of more "people with special genes" living in their country? What would be a plot hole is if there were no people trying to Make America Human Again and attempting to deport or otherwise be rid of the folks with the weird genes.

Now if some regular, honest, real, patriotic humans just happened to get some powers from a crazy accident or had them given by the U.S. government, a la Captain America, I don't find it too far fetched that there would be people who don't hate them like they hate muties.

[Hybrid]

On a related note, do the people who speak of X-Men as an offshoot know how badly premised that is?

Those who speak of the mutant racism this way and use it to justify them wanting the X-Men to be removed from Marvel and into their own universe, don't seem to realize that the Avengers for most of their history were NOT the core of Marvel. The X-Men were far more popular than the Avengers collectively, and especially individuals like Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Panther and so on. If you were to divide Marvel into several pillars, say X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and Avengers, then the Avengers were least popular among them. In fact, the idea that the X-Men didn't cross into the wider universe is also only a half-truth: First, they did cross over but they just didn't need to do it every issue. Second, it was because the X-Men were more popular and it was in their best interests to keep the X-Men the top dogs and the Avengers away from them. When they did crossover, the Avengers were second-fiddle.

Remember, the terrible Heroes Reborn reboot is the closest thing to this -- only the Avengers were jettisoned to their own universe, not the other way around. I also think it's proof that Marvel works best as a unit with everyone in the same world.

Would you say this idea that the mutant and non-mutant sides of the Marvel Universe are "two universes smushed together" is a strictly modern perspective, born out of Fox owning the X-Men film rights and Marvel running the MCU without them? Will it disappear when everyone gets used to seeing them in the MCU?

I hope so.

[Chris0013]

On a related note, do the people who speak of X-Men as an offshoot know how badly premised that is?

Those who speak of the mutant racism this way and use it to justify them wanting the X-Men to be removed from Marvel and into their own universe, don't seem to realize that the Avengers for most of their history were NOT the core of Marvel. The X-Men were far more popular than the Avengers collectively, and especially individuals like Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Panther and so on. If you were to divide Marvel into several pillars, say X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and Avengers, then the Avengers were least popular among them. In fact, the idea that the X-Men didn't cross into the wider universe is also only a half-truth: First, they did cross over but they just didn't need to do it every issue. Second, it was because the X-Men were more popular and it was in their best interests to keep the X-Men the top dogs and the Avengers away from them. When they did crossover, the Avengers were second-fiddle.

Remember, the terrible Heroes Reborn reboot is the closest thing to this -- only the Avengers were jettisoned to their own universe, not the other way around. I also think it's proof that Marvel works best as a unit with everyone in the same world.

Would you say this idea that the mutant and non-mutant sides of the Marvel Universe are "two universes smushed together" is a strictly modern perspective, born out of Fox owning the X-Men film rights and Marvel running the MCU without them? Will it disappear when everyone gets used to seeing them in the MCU?

I hope so.

This is why I say the X-Office needs to loosen up their grip on mutant characters. There should be mutants on the Avengers. Maybe not the top tier X-Men characters...but use Firestar and Madison Jeffries/Box in the Avengers. Take Riri Williams buddy Xavier King and make him a mutant and superhero in his own right....maybe the X-Men come to recruit him but he tells them he is staying in Chicago to help his home town.

[Havok83]

Yes and I dont get why its so hard for some people to grasp

This is why I say the X-Office needs to loosen up their grip on mutant characters. There should be mutants on the Avengers. Maybe not the top tier X-Men characters...but use Firestar and Madison Jeffries/Box in the Avengers. Take Riri Williams buddy Xavier King and make him a mutant and superhero in his own right....maybe the X-Men come to recruit him but he tells them he is staying in Chicago to help his home town.

There are mutants on other teams. The main Avengers dont currently but we just had Quentin in West Coast Avengers and there is Dust in Champions. The X-Office has a grip on the A-list X-men characters not mutant characters in general. Many have been made outside the X-office and used accordingly

[Chris0013]

Yes and I dont get why its so hard for some people to grasp



There are mutants on other teams. The main Avengers dont currently but we just had Quentin in West Coast Avengers and there is Dust in Champions. The X-Office has a grip on the A-list X-men characters not mutant characters in general. Many have been made outside the X-office and used accordingly

But they are generally not used prominently....Yes Quire was in WCA...but Dust seems (to me at least) to be a placeholder in Champions. And aside from how Dust was introduced into Champions I really don't recall mutants outside the X-Books dealing with the anti-mutant nonsense.

[Hybrid]

Not that long ago, we had Cannonball and Sunspot as part of the Avengers in Hickman's iconic run. I think it helped revitalize their characters, as they were put in a new situation and were part of a large-scale epic, as opposed to being trapped in mutant conflicts just to play second-fiddle to other more iconic mutant characters. They stood out in the Avengers specifically by being X-Men transplants, and got to do things that were outside their norm.

I wonder how ironclad the so-called grip is tbh. I know there are different offices within Marvel, and to get a character from one to appear in another, they have to coordinate it in advance so as to not break continuity or anything. Hickman has publicity stated that Sam and Bobby are among his favorite X-Men characters, and while recent this was still well before he wrote X-Men. Maybe there wasn't any big plans for the two, and Hickman made a strong argument to allow them there, so White figured "Eh, why not?".

[Electricmastro]

I agree with the above quotes.

It just needs updating and growing. It needs to show good times and improvement along with he bad. More of a push and pull when it comes to progress like in real life. They are still at the same stage they were over 50 years ago with next to no progress made. There should be mutant culture and language, improvements in certain areas. I love that Hickman has introduced their own language and hope he develops a unique culture for them like most minority groups have.
There should also be more humans who support mutants, both in and out of the superhero community. There'd still be dangers and bigots attacking them, buy there would also be improvements, I think that would better represent today.
I get why everything is so extreme, but it misses out on a lot of nuance and stories that represent modern discrimination.

Yeah, and I think it's edging closer to paralleling religion more than other aspects such as race, which becomes more apparent when looking at pages from more relatively recent comics such as from New X-Men #23 (2006), where white people and black people are seen smiling while someone up at the podium talks about ending Satan's reign. I don't know, to me, it just seems more like a religious war than anything else at that point.

[BroHomo]

Yeah, and I think it's edging closer to paralleling religion more than other aspects such as race, which becomes more apparent when looking at pages from more relatively recent comics such as from New X-Men #23 (2006), where white people and black people are seen smiling while someone up at the podium talks about ending Satan's reign. I don't know, to me, it just seems more like a religious war than anything else at that point.

Lol that's Stryker I'm sure
And religion isn't something you're born with...you can choose to follow/not follow a religion

[Electricmastro]

Lol that's Stryker I'm sure
And religion isn't something you're born with...you can choose to follow/not follow a religion

It's not about following religions, it's more like framing the hostility and persecution of the mutants as largely religious/biblical-based (i.e. we must destroy these demons of destruction before they destroy us, Age of Apocalypse, Messiah Complex, Second Coming, etc.). It just seems to me that the "mutant racism" parallel seems further and further away at that point and becomes more of a stretch to apply it to later comics.