Does anyone else hate when people call mutant racism in the MU a "plot hole"?

[Hybrid]

I've seen it many times before, and used as a justification for why they want X-Men in their own universe:

"The bigotry/racism towards mutants in the Marvel Universe is illogical in a setting where other superpowered beings exist!"

Yeah, you know what else is illogical? Bigotry in the real world.

People hating on others for just the slightest of differences when we're all human is something that's been ongoing since forever and will be for the foreseeable future. That was the point, it was deliberately made to not make sense from the beginning in order to mirror how real-world bigotry works. I mean, some of the most heinous actions committed in human history were motivated by bigotry, even for the tiniest and superficial of differences.

Also, it's been said there's no real reason this would even happen. Actually, there is a source for why they would hate mutants but not the other superpowered beings:

Mutants are considered to be the next step in the evolutionary process, specifically because they were born with their abilities. They hate and fear them because they feel like mutants are there to replace them, and the amount of mutant supremacists set out to do just that lends credence to the idea. We all know what happened to the Neanderthals.

Meanwhile, the mutates of the world don't have that kind of stigma. A mutate is someone born a baseline human, who got their powers later via a foreign element. In other words, people like the Human Torch, the Wasp, Spider-Man and She-Hulk still represent humankind as a whole, just enhanced, but not evolved. Not a truly justified reason, but that's how they see it, and I can at least see how they come to that conclusion.

I've also seen people say "How would you even know if someone is a mutant or a mutate?". Well, that's actually factored into the universe as well. I've been consistently following the new Spider-Man run, and one instance stuck out to me:



Here's a picture of people at a club running away from Billy, the son of Curt Conners aka the Lizard, because they think he's a mutant for his reptilian appearance. He's not. Billy is a mutate, from the same formula that mutated his dad. They had no way of knowing that, however, and assumed he was "one of the freaks". I'm sure I've seen other instances of this happening in Marvel as well.

Anyways, has the portrayal always been perfect? No. I do wish to see the Avengers being more active in helping the X-Men, who they're supposed to be on good terms with. However, I do not think it's a plot hole, but an intended inconsistency to highlight the nature of racism in the real world, which doesn't adhere to any real logic.

As a whole, I'm very much against the idea of the X-Men being jettisoned to their own universe because it speaks of them as though they were just a disposable offshoot of the Marvel brand. In reality, they're just as much Marvel as the Avengers, Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, and should be treated as such. I mean, come on, separating them but treating them as "equals"? Sounds oddly familiar, and ironic...

Thoughts?

[Riv86672]

I’m w. you.
Mutant bigotry makes sense even in a super powered reality.
And no, the X franchise shouldn’t be separate (segregated) from the MU.

[Electricmastro]

I've seen it as harder and harder to say that the mutant racism is a close parallel to real life racism as of how it's written now, as opposed to how it was written in the 1960s-1980s comics, but that said, yeah, I still think it's well-written now in a way that it's not just mutants that suffer from unfair accusations of being some sort of enemy that will do harm.

[salarta]

In societies, there's always going to be something that bigots latch onto as a "reason" for their discrimination. Race, sex and gender are the most common. But if you take those factors out, it'll be something else. Like money they make. Or where they were born. Or what job they work. Or their accent. The famous "brown eyes, blue eyes" school lesson was built off using relatively innocuous and meaningless differences in eye color to make this point.

I don't watch the Supergirl show, but when I caught glimpses of it waiting for Charmed to come on, I noticed it has a theme of discrimination against aliens. Another CW show, iZombie, made zombies into this case once the public became aware zombies existed.

Bigotry doesn't ask if bigotry is "logical." It simply is.

[Huntsman Spider]

And in the older comics, Spider-Man was occasionally mistaken for a mutant by the public because, "He has creepy powers and covers his entire body and face, so he must be some hideous mutant freak under that costume!" Hell, somebody even tried to sic the original X-Factor (the original five X-Men, who were posing as mutant hunters to endear themselves to the public while secretly protecting the mutants they tracked down and "captured") on him at one point. Then back in the early 1990s, later revisited as an entire event in the original Civil War of the 2000s, certain governmental authorities tried to force everyone and anyone with superhuman abilities or attributes, not just mutants, to register. That would parallel what has been said by some about how bigotry and prejudice are ultimately exploited to push totalitarian and authoritarian policies by starting with "acceptable targets" so that the general public will be more inclined to look the other way, certain that they or their loved ones won't eventually be targeted themselves --- until they are.

[Electricmastro]

And in the older comics, Spider-Man was occasionally mistaken for a mutant by the public because, "He has creepy powers and covers his entire body and face, so he must be some hideous mutant freak under that costume!" Hell, somebody even tried to sic the original X-Factor (the original five X-Men, who were posing as mutant hunters to endear themselves to the public while secretly protecting the mutants they tracked down and "captured") on him at one point. Then back in the early 1990s, later revisited as an entire event in the original Civil War of the 2000s, certain governmental authorities tried to force everyone and anyone with superhuman abilities or attributes, not just mutants, to register. That would parallel what has been said by some about how bigotry and prejudice are ultimately exploited to push totalitarian and authoritarian policies by starting with "acceptable targets" so that the general public will be more inclined to look the other way, certain that they or their loved ones won't eventually be targeted themselves --- until they are.

Yup, even bigotry and scapegoating can be used as deadly tools for influence, power, and personal gain. McCarthyism is probably one of the more well-known, specific examples of making accusations towards someone being bad without proper regard for evidence.

[Killerbee911]

It is a gigantic plot hole in which people defend with a paper defense of "hate is illogic" no humans hate what they don't understand and is different.

1. Robots would be hated and feared. Robot have taken over and nearly destroyed the world
2. Aliens would be hated and feared. Aliens have taken over and nearly destroyed the world
3 Superhumans would be hated and feared. Superhumans have taken over and nearly destroyed the world
4 Magic would be hated and feared. The supernatural have nearly destroyed the world

You can't sell me that people who are irrational hating mutants are going I hate mutants but "aliens from another planet" those guys are cool. Racist behavior is pretty uniformed I know that when a hear people talking reckless about Mexicans and Muslims, I am pretty sure they don't like me as a black person too. Hate is more consistent than people are giving credit. And they would have every reason to apply the same logic to other fantastic elements in the world. Hulk is doing an amazing job of making Human feel comfortable about superhuman. All those supervillains are doing a good job of making humans feel great about superhumans. The Stamford incident made people really comfortable about superhumans. It doesn't take much for another group to get add to the hate list.

It is not a surprise that Sentiels never stop at mutants

[Grey]

Yes

101010

[Grey]

It is a gigantic plot hole in which people defend with a paper defense of "hate is illogic" no humans hate what they don't understand and is different.

1. Robots would be hated and feared. Robot have taken over and nearly destroyed the world
2. Aliens would be hated and feared. Aliens have taken over and nearly destroyed the world
3 Superhumans would be hated and feared. Superhumans have taken over and nearly destroyed the world
4 Magic would be hated and feared. The supernatural have nearly destroyed the world

You can't sell me that people who are irrational hating mutants are going I hate mutants but "aliens from another planet" those guys are cool. Racist behavior is pretty uniformed I know that when a hear people talking reckless about Mexicans and Muslims, I am pretty sure they don't like me as a black person too. Hate is more consistent than people are giving credit. And they would have every reason to apply the same logic to other fantastic elements in the world. Hulk is doing an amazing job of making Human feel comfortable about superhuman. All those supervillains are doing a good job of making humans feel great about superhumans. The Stamford incident made people really comfortable about superhumans. It doesn't take much for another group to get add to the hate list.

It is not a surprise that Sentiels never stop at mutants

Ever met someone who likes a gay person who “doesn’t parade it around”, or calls certain brown people “well-read and educated”? Their bigoted behavior is directed at certain subgroups no doubt.

Someone like this may indeed be bigoted towards all superheroes but would likely be nice to more “respected” and “publicly sanctioned” superheros such as the avengers.

This is all never mind the fact that there are multiple reasons people hate mutants besides their superpowers, including the fact that they’re born that way makes them “not natural” “freaks” “disgusting” “not how god intended”, but people who talk about the “plot hole” never seem to acknowledge this angle of mutant hatred.

[FIGHT]

Anyways, has the portrayal always been perfect? No. I do wish to see the Avengers being more active in helping the X-Men, who they're supposed to be on good terms with. However, I do not think it's a plot hole, but an intended inconsistency to highlight the nature of racism in the real world, which doesn't adhere to any real logic.

As a whole, I'm very much against the idea of the X-Men being jettisoned to their own universe because it speaks of them as though they were just a disposable offshoot of the Marvel brand. In reality, they're just as much Marvel as the Avengers, Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, and should be treated as such. I mean, come on, separating them but treating them as "equals"? Sounds oddly familiar, and ironic...

Thoughts?

....Why do you want to see Avengers poking their noses into X-man story lines?

It can't be done right. Look at Onslaught, where the X-men just go have dinner after the avengers supposedly die or whatever. (The beginning of Onslaught was okay.) Or at the "unity team" which was just another Avengers group with Cap calling the shots. Or AvX, which made the X-men villains and destroyed utopia, with a good dose of X-men acting out of character. (Like Cyclops trashing Hope in the 1st issue, after a history of putting her safety before everything)

I can see why you think the way you do tho.

[Hybrid]

....Why do you want to see Avengers poking their noses into X-man story lines?

It can't be done right. Look at Onslaught, where the X-men just go have dinner after the avengers supposedly die or whatever. (The beginning of Onslaught was okay.) Or at the "unity team" which was just another Avengers group with Cap calling the shots. Or AvX, which made the X-men villains and destroyed utopia, with a good dose of X-men acting out of character. (Like Cyclops trashing Hope in the 1st issue, after a history of putting her safety before everything)

I can see why you think the way you do tho.

Dude, are you seriously cherrypicking bad examples of greater universe crossover, presenting it as something that "can't work", while ignoring the times when it did?

Just to name a few:

• Secret Wars is the classic crossover storyline, involving the X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and Hulk, being transported to Battleworld.
• Mutant Massacre is another classic X-Men story, which was a crossover between the X-Men, New Mutants, and X-Factor, and featured appearances from Thor, Daredevil and Power Pack.
• Astonishing X-Men (one of the better X-Men runs of the '00s) featured appearances of the rest of the MU throughout, while still maintaining the core focus.
• The Hand (a key part of the Daredevil mythos) has a long association with both Wolverine and Psylocke.
• Cannonball and Sunspot joining the Avengers, which helped to revitalize their characters rather than risk them fading to the background.
• Spider-Man was a teacher at the Jean Grey School of Higher Learning, and it was a fun series.

The ones you picked were Onslaught (made in the '90s dork age and the only really good thing to come of it was Thunderbolts), and the era where they were both giving X-Men the finger over film rights and were addicted to Hero v. Hero events. There have been plenty of cases of organic crossovers between mutant and non-mutant sides throughout Marvel's history.

[BroHomo]

There is enough cases in the real world to show that a large number of people who are not mutants would be fighting for mutant rights. They were more counter-protestors at straight pride than people in the parade. The next time hate groups tried to rally after Charlottesville the counter-protest where in the thousands, the hate group had less than 100 people. Mutant shouldn't be as hated as they are in Marvel.

Yeah but just cause people protest a "Prejudice Party" doesn't stop homophobes or racists or sexists Or that a significant number of the population is "fighting" for the civil rights of a group that doesn't include them.

That is angle played up for drama in stories. They aren't trying to accurately reflect the world just make fun and interesting stories to read.

But dude There's plenty of real life examples a person's frenzied hatred erupting and harming a specific people the attacker hated for no reason

I always assume anyone who thinks it's a plot hole hasn't dealt with discrimination IRL, so their [wrong] opinion doesn't hold any weight for me.

Lol YUUUUP
so simple, yet so true.

[Killerbee911]

Yeah but just cause people protest a "Prejudice Party" doesn't stop homophobes or racists or sexists Or that a significant number of the population is "fighting" for the civil rights of a group that doesn't include them.

But dude There's plenty of real life examples a person's frenzied hatred erupting and harming a specific people the attacker hated for no reason

I gave real-life example to show that things are more in the middle than what is happening in the X-men uni, The presence of hate doesn't disprove my point. But people protesting in real life point to the X-men being slaughtered with no safe place in the US say Rosenberg Uncanny as extreme. What I am saying is yeah Alabama and couple other states could pass laws that restrict personal freedom for women but they are several others states where those laws wouldn't be passed. I am not saying some things of the X-men can't happen. I am saying in the US and some countries would be split down the middle. Which is what makes the extinction stories for the X-men feel like weird. It is even weirder with other superhuman groups running around fairly well adjusted

[Dark-Jacket]

I think not being well handled creates a plothole but that doesn't it to still be relevant.

An example, the mutants are powerhouse, should be addressed in the comics with a simple answer 'but so are the Avengers'.
I think if you want to keep up with the real world, you need to tone down the mass hysteria (especially in New York) but show how it's more individual behaviour which are attacked.
An example would be mutant going to human schools and getting picked on by parents. A human and a mutant walking hand by hand in the street and getting spat on. Internet coordinated attacks by humans on mutants friendly places and so on.
You can't write the stories with an outdated look at how discrimination now works in the USA and in the world.

[loke13]

....Why do you want to see Avengers poking their noses into X-man story lines?

It can't be done right. Look at Onslaught, where the X-men just go have dinner after the avengers supposedly die or whatever. (The beginning of Onslaught was okay.) Or at the "unity team" which was just another Avengers group with Cap calling the shots. Or AvX, which made the X-men villains and destroyed utopia, with a good dose of X-men acting out of character. (Like Cyclops trashing Hope in the 1st issue, after a history of putting her safety before everything)

I can see why you think the way you do tho.

I mean I think it can be done right. Just with a modicum of care involved