Does anyone else hate when people call mutant racism in the MU a "plot hole"?

[Beaddle]

The bigger lesson here is not to see it as a plothole but understanding more why xmen works best as a self contained universe.

[Hybrid]

One thing to keep in mind, due to the rule of drama, the mutant hatred tends to get emphasized more. We have to look at the bigger picture, not everyone hates mutants.

I mean:

• Spider-Man has gotten along pretty well with them in their adventures together, and he was even a teacher at the Jean Grey School of Higher Learning. He doesn't come across to me as someone who hates any particular race (well, except maybe the Klyntar...) and would risk his life to save a mutant in peril as he would anyone else.
• The Thing is the most beloved hero in the Marvel Universe, and he had a close friendship with everyone outside the FF, including the X-Men. If the Thing ever needs help, you can bet anyone in the community, even mutants, will come by his side.
• Runaways poked fun at this. Molly Hayes discovered she's a mutant, and said to the others "You better not act all prejudice around me". Of course, they don't -- the non-mutant members see her as family.
• Every time mutants have been in the Avengers, it's always been portrayed well. I don't think anyone thought "why do we have a mutie on the team?". No one on the Avengers ever came across to me as a mutant hater, and their adventures with the X-Men worked just fine.
• On that note, remember when Jean Grey returned, she was not rescued by any X-team, but the Avengers.
• Black Panther married Storm, which says all we need to know.
• And of course, the X-Men and related teams have had many non-mutant friends and allies who work closely with them and the relationship is functional.

As I said, the execution isn't always perfect. I'd like to see more of this to highlight it. That's the nature of a comic book shared universe, though.

[WebLurker]

Marvel is flawed to me because a wider selection of people should be getting the irrational "the mutant treatment" and as a reflection of the real world, they don't show the progress that is being made in race relations. I can accept the fiction if they say it is that then that what it is , I just don't accept it as an accurate depiction of what would happen in the real world.

Well, the mutants are stuck because, as a parable for racism, X-Men cannot move past certain stages and actually show progress.

[Electricmastro]

Well, the mutants are stuck because, as a parable for racism, X-Men cannot move past certain stages and actually show progress.

Well if it's going to be a parable that parallels reality, then it might as well be up to date and realistic for the sake of having some accuracy. This isn't about "moving past" certain stages and denying that bigotry exists, but to show the complexities of relations. To say that X-Men shouldn't show any progress at all and claim that as a parallel towards reality implies that it's not possible for any minority to live decent lives in this day and age, and undermines the hard work people in the past like Martin Luther King put into making significant progress in real life relations.

Basically, it's possible to show the good, the bad, and the ugly of life without making any of them any less important of note when the writers let it be written that way.

[FIGHT]

Anyways, has the portrayal always been perfect? No. I do wish to see the Avengers being more active in helping the X-Men, who they're supposed to be on good terms with. However, I do not think it's a plot hole, but an intended inconsistency to highlight the nature of racism in the real world, which doesn't adhere to any real logic.

As a whole, I'm very much against the idea of the X-Men being jettisoned to their own universe because it speaks of them as though they were just a disposable offshoot of the Marvel brand. In reality, they're just as much Marvel as the Avengers, Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, and should be treated as such. I mean, come on, separating them but treating them as "equals"? Sounds oddly familiar, and ironic...

Thoughts?

....Why do you want to see Avengers poking their noses into X-man story lines?

It can't be done right. Look at Onslaught, where the X-men just go have dinner after the avengers supposedly die or whatever. (The beginning of Onslaught was okay.) Or at the "unity team" which was just another Avengers group with Cap calling the shots. Or AvX, which made the X-men villains and destroyed utopia, with a good dose of X-men acting out of character. (Like Cyclops trashing Hope in the 1st issue, after a history of putting her safety before everything)

I can see why you think the way you do tho.

[Hybrid]

....Why do you want to see Avengers poking their noses into X-man story lines?

It can't be done right. Look at Onslaught, where the X-men just go have dinner after the avengers supposedly die or whatever. (The beginning of Onslaught was okay.) Or at the "unity team" which was just another Avengers group with Cap calling the shots. Or AvX, which made the X-men villains and destroyed utopia, with a good dose of X-men acting out of character. (Like Cyclops trashing Hope in the 1st issue, after a history of putting her safety before everything)

I can see why you think the way you do tho.

Dude, are you seriously cherrypicking bad examples of greater universe crossover, presenting it as something that "can't work", while ignoring the times when it did?

Just to name a few:

• Secret Wars is the classic crossover storyline, involving the X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and Hulk, being transported to Battleworld.
• Mutant Massacre is another classic X-Men story, which was a crossover between the X-Men, New Mutants, and X-Factor, and featured appearances from Thor, Daredevil and Power Pack.
• Astonishing X-Men (one of the better X-Men runs of the '00s) featured appearances of the rest of the MU throughout, while still maintaining the core focus.
• The Hand (a key part of the Daredevil mythos) has a long association with both Wolverine and Psylocke.
• Cannonball and Sunspot joining the Avengers, which helped to revitalize their characters rather than risk them fading to the background.
• Spider-Man was a teacher at the Jean Grey School of Higher Learning, and it was a fun series.

The ones you picked were Onslaught (made in the '90s dork age and the only really good thing to come of it was Thunderbolts), and the era where they were both giving X-Men the finger over film rights and were addicted to Hero v. Hero events. There have been plenty of cases of organic crossovers between mutant and non-mutant sides throughout Marvel's history.

[loke13]

....Why do you want to see Avengers poking their noses into X-man story lines?

It can't be done right. Look at Onslaught, where the X-men just go have dinner after the avengers supposedly die or whatever. (The beginning of Onslaught was okay.) Or at the "unity team" which was just another Avengers group with Cap calling the shots. Or AvX, which made the X-men villains and destroyed utopia, with a good dose of X-men acting out of character. (Like Cyclops trashing Hope in the 1st issue, after a history of putting her safety before everything)

I can see why you think the way you do tho.

I mean I think it can be done right. Just with a modicum of care involved

[davetvs]

I always assume anyone who thinks it's a plot hole hasn't dealt with discrimination IRL, so their [wrong] opinion doesn't hold any weight for me.

[Devaishwarya]

Because Chris Claremont doesn't have as much of an influence in the writing anymore.

Thank the Goddess!
Claremont threw out these 'sound bites' occasionally but he never truly went in-depth nor followed up on them. So I'm not giving him a 'pass' on engendering good race-relations.
To the OP's point...The whole 'hated and feared' thing is a (highly contrived) plot device which, is understandable from certain perspectives but is never adequately executed/addressed (much like a dangling plot line)...not plot hole, which is by and large inexplicable.
So...those who say "plot hole" deserve our sympathy and help, not our hatred (and fear).

[BroHomo]

There is enough cases in the real world to show that a large number of people who are not mutants would be fighting for mutant rights. They were more counter-protestors at straight pride than people in the parade. The next time hate groups tried to rally after Charlottesville the counter-protest where in the thousands, the hate group had less than 100 people. Mutant shouldn't be as hated as they are in Marvel.

Yeah but just cause people protest a "Prejudice Party" doesn't stop homophobes or racists or sexists Or that a significant number of the population is "fighting" for the civil rights of a group that doesn't include them.

That is angle played up for drama in stories. They aren't trying to accurately reflect the world just make fun and interesting stories to read.

But dude There's plenty of real life examples a person's frenzied hatred erupting and harming a specific people the attacker hated for no reason

I always assume anyone who thinks it's a plot hole hasn't dealt with discrimination IRL, so their [wrong] opinion doesn't hold any weight for me.

Lol YUUUUP
so simple, yet so true.

[ermac]

Well if it's going to be a parable that parallels reality, then it might as well be up to date and realistic for the sake of having some accuracy.

After a decade of House of M, mutant genocide, war with SHIELD and the Avengers, the Terrigen cloud... I must say they might have exagerated a little.

[Crimz]

Marvel is flawed to me because a wider selection of people should be getting the irrational "the mutant treatment" and as a reflection of the real world, they don't show the progress that is being made in race relations. I can accept the fiction if they say it is that then that what it is , I just don't accept it as an accurate depiction of what would happen in the real world.

Well if it's going to be a parable that parallels reality, then it might as well be up to date and realistic for the sake of having some accuracy. This isn't about "moving past" certain stages and denying that bigotry exists, but to show the complexities of relations. To say that X-Men shouldn't show any progress at all and claim that as a parallel towards reality implies that it's not possible for any minority to live decent lives in this day and age, and undermines the hard work people in the past like Martin Luther King put into making significant progress in real life relations.

Basically, it's possible to show the good, the bad, and the ugly of life without making any of them any less important of note when the writers let it be written that way.

I agree with the above quotes.

It just needs updating and growing. It needs to show good times and improvement along with he bad. More of a push and pull when it comes to progress like in real life. They are still at the same stage they were over 50 years ago with next to no progress made. There should be mutant culture and language, improvements in certain areas. I love that Hickman has introduced their own language and hope he develops a unique culture for them like most minority groups have.
There should also be more humans who support mutants, both in and out of the superhero community. There'd still be dangers and bigots attacking them, buy there would also be improvements, I think that would better represent today.
I get why everything is so extreme, but it misses out on a lot of nuance and stories that represent modern discrimination.

[Devaishwarya]

After a decade of House of M, mutant genocide, war with SHIELD and the Avengers, the Terrigen cloud... I must say they might have exagerated a little.

Pretty much.
It's s the analogy taken to the extreme...just as it was in our real world...with the Holocaust and the Rohingya crisis.

[Killerbee911]

Yeah but just cause people protest a "Prejudice Party" doesn't stop homophobes or racists or sexists Or that a significant number of the population is "fighting" for the civil rights of a group that doesn't include them.

But dude There's plenty of real life examples a person's frenzied hatred erupting and harming a specific people the attacker hated for no reason

I gave real-life example to show that things are more in the middle than what is happening in the X-men uni, The presence of hate doesn't disprove my point. But people protesting in real life point to the X-men being slaughtered with no safe place in the US say Rosenberg Uncanny as extreme. What I am saying is yeah Alabama and couple other states could pass laws that restrict personal freedom for women but they are several others states where those laws wouldn't be passed. I am not saying some things of the X-men can't happen. I am saying in the US and some countries would be split down the middle. Which is what makes the extinction stories for the X-men feel like weird. It is even weirder with other superhuman groups running around fairly well adjusted

[Dark-Jacket]

I think not being well handled creates a plothole but that doesn't it to still be relevant.

An example, the mutants are powerhouse, should be addressed in the comics with a simple answer 'but so are the Avengers'.
I think if you want to keep up with the real world, you need to tone down the mass hysteria (especially in New York) but show how it's more individual behaviour which are attacked.
An example would be mutant going to human schools and getting picked on by parents. A human and a mutant walking hand by hand in the street and getting spat on. Internet coordinated attacks by humans on mutants friendly places and so on.
You can't write the stories with an outdated look at how discrimination now works in the USA and in the world.