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  1. #61
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    I disagree. It doesn't make sense that meta-humans like the Avengers are embraced while mutants like the X-Men are despised. A human herd is not known for its nuance. Personally, I would be much more worried what a guy like Thor was up to than a guy like Nightcrawler.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelman View Post
    I disagree. It doesn't make sense that meta-humans like the Avengers are embraced while mutants like the X-Men are despised. A human herd is not known for its nuance. Personally, I would be much more worried what a guy like Thor was up to than a guy like Nightcrawler.
    This is farther back, but you reminded me of Mimic from X-Men #19 (April 1966), who was mistaken for a mutant, even though, at least by many accounts, that he wasn't one.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-20-2019 at 10:37 PM.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    It's not about following religions, it's more like framing the hostility and persecution of the mutants as largely religious/biblical-based (i.e. we must destroy these demons of destruction before they destroy us, Age of Apocalypse, Messiah Complex, Second Coming, etc.). It just seems to me that the "mutant racism" parallel seems further and further away at that point and becomes more of a stretch to apply it to later comics.
    Framing the Hatred and violence some Humans show towards Mutants (destroy them before they take over ) as a species fearful of being replaced is just as viable
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  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Framing the Hatred and violence some Humans show towards Mutants (destroy them before they take over ) as a species fearful of being replaced is just as viable
    It’s not that I’m against that specific idea on principle. In sum, I just don’t agree with the way the later writers have executed the idea and humans vs. mutants scenarios in general in more recent comics. Perhaps my thoughts could be worded better, but that’s more or less how I feel, and you’re free to disagree, of course.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-21-2019 at 08:41 AM.

  5. #65
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    After Hickman's House of X and Power of X more ppl will view the struggle more as an evolutionary conflict than the fear and hate of mutants. The minority allegory can be easily dismissed now by ppl who see it as a plot hole because co-existence has failed and survival for the fittest is the agenda
    Last edited by Tofali; 09-21-2019 at 11:44 AM.

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmist View Post
    After Hickman's House of X and Power of X more ppl will view the struggle more as an evolutionary conflict than the fear and hate of mutants. The minority allegory can be easily dismissed now by ppl who see it as a plot hole because co-existence has failed and survival for the fittest is the agenda
    Survival of the fittest has failed, too. That was the whole point of Moira’s Ninth Life so what she’s doing in the current life encompasses everything she’s learned, including coexistence, isolationism, compromise, survival of the fittest, etc etc.

  7. #67
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    "Co-existence. FAILED. War with humanity. FAILED. Survival of the fittest. FAILED. What else is there?"

    "Survival of the thiccest. All the biggest mutie booties united as one, Charles. We're also gonna need a LOT of weed."
    I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    After Hickman's House of X and Power of X more ppl will view the struggle more as an evolutionary conflict than the fear and hate of mutants. The minority allegory can be easily dismissed now by ppl who see it as a plot hole because co-existence has failed and survival for the fittest is the agenda
    After much reflection, I've come to the conclusion even despite the best of intentions, many of the previous writers in how they handled the human/mutant relations as a minority allegory have pretty much failed in its consistency and worldbuilding in amounting to anything meaningfully worthwhile, and Hickman seems to be cleaning up the mess for the better I'd say.

    Try as they may, I just don't think it amounted to good consistency, even with the explanation of "racism not adhering to any real logic," irrationality with nuance in who the humans do and don't hate on just doesn't add up, as even Billy Connors' case won't stop me from making any criticisms in regards to how many previous writers have had things play out. I don't think Marvel was always known for being the greatest in handling its continuity, and this sort of thing wasn't helping matters. It really makes me take a step back and think when I see some people say that humans hating on mutants is meant to reflect racism in the real world, but then I see others frame the hate as more of a hatred of not wanting to be replaced, which is a conflicting conundrum that I think clearly shows in comics like Avengers #24 (January, 2000) for example.



    Last edited by Electricmastro; 10-21-2019 at 07:56 PM.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    "Co-existence. FAILED. War with humanity. FAILED. Survival of the fittest. FAILED. What else is there?"

    "Survival of the thiccest. All the biggest mutie booties united as one, Charles. We're also gonna need a LOT of weed."
    And Grits. And Biscuits
    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    After much reflection, I've come to the conclusion even despite the best of intentions, many of the previous writers in how they handled the human/mutant relations as a minority allegory have pretty much failed in its consistency and worldbuilding in amounting to anything meaningfully worthwhile, and Hickman seems to be cleaning up the mess for the better I'd say.

    Try as they may, I just don't think it amounted to good consistency. I don't think Marvel was always known for being the greatest in handling its continuity, and this sort of thing wasn't helping matters. It really makes me take a step back and think when I see some people say that humans hating on mutants is meant to reflect racism in the real world, but then I see others frame the hate as more of a hatred of not wanting to be replaced, which is a conflicting conundrum that I think clearly shows in comics like Avengers #24 (January, 2000) for example.



    Uh what's this supposed to show?
    Last edited by BroHomo; 10-21-2019 at 07:28 PM.
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  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    And Grits. And Biscuits

    Uh what's this supposed to show?
    It was ultimately part of a movement (the Triune Understanding) made as an act of revenge by Jonathan Tremont. Though even with that context, I still feel that the above panels pretty much sum up the poorly handled worldbuilding by previous writers in regards to mutant/human relations overall.

  11. #71
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Conflict for conflict's sake.
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  12. #72
    Incredible Member Agatha's Ghost's Avatar
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    It is utterly ridiculous that people call it a plot hole. I fully understand why people hate mutants in particular.

  13. #73
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    From my POV, I always thought that yes the presence of a variety of "other" superbeings does cause some dilution to the narrative BUT it can still work

    Basically the key difference is the other superbeings have accidental/ad hoc origin stories, but mutants are literally just what humans are beginning to turn into...

    So it's a LOT more frightening and it's also sort of "inevitable/out of control" in some ways.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    From my POV, I always thought that yes the presence of a variety of "other" superbeings does cause some dilution to the narrative BUT it can still work

    Basically the key difference is the other superbeings have accidental/ad hoc origin stories, but mutants are literally just what humans are beginning to turn into...

    So it's a LOT more frightening and it's also sort of "inevitable/out of control" in some ways.
    Despite my criticisms, I definitely do think it can work if the management of the writing is done well enough. I suppose it didn't further help Earth-616's worldbuilding that there were stories by different writers that showed mutants joining superpowered teams like the Champions and Avengers, and the public not really rioting up against them despite that. Mutants even showed up at the Hulk's acceptance speech near the Army with no backlash against them from the crowd either.





    Last edited by Electricmastro; 10-21-2019 at 11:14 PM.

  15. #75
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    Of course it's a plot hole. To consider weapons of mass destruction to be a proper minority stand ins, and to assume people shouldn't feel uncomfortable around them.
    I'd like to read most of you authentic reactions when you learn your child goes to school with a kid that can level mountains with a stare, or that you compete for a job with a telepath.

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