HoX: Should the crew of the Orchis Forge be considered 'Innocent Civilians'?

[Striderblack01]

Having just read HoX 3 & 4 (I'm always fashionably late), one thing that struck me about the Orchis Forge mission, besides how unbelievably badass it was, was the notion that the human crew were 'innocent civilians'.

Logan sneers at the idea, and begins to make some good points about their actions.
These people are effectively putting a sentinel-shaped gun at the head of the mutant race. Hickman does a fantastic job reminding the reader of the atrocities committed to the mutant race in the past, through Sentinels (and pretenders), as well as the future.

Now, obviously, Xavier and the X-men were never going to commit the mass murder of 3,000 people.
Doesn't really jive with what they stand for.

But, knowing everything we know about who they are, what they were up to, why they were doing it, and what happens to mutants when Mother Mold becomes active, should the human crew of the Orchis Forge really be considered 'innocent civilians'?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I'll say that they have been taught the fear they have by bad leaders, much like real racists. They aren't innocent though.

[Beetle]

I mean they were developing a giant self aware Sentinel factory that can create more sentinel factories

[Killerbee911]

[

Now, obviously, Xavier and the X-men were never going to commit the mass murder of 3,000 people.
Doesn't really jive with what they stand for.

Mass Murder? In a War you call that base strategic bombing target but since the X-men aren't a sovereign country those rules don't apply to them...

[Tofali]

I'm surprised that any parties in this war of survival is seen as innocent.

[stormphoenix]

No- These bastards need to be stopped or killed. No, iffs, ands or buts. Take them all down.

[CoCoBandz]

HELL no.

Vermin is what they are.

I mean they were developing a giant self aware Sentinel factory that can create more sentinel factories

That'd eventually kill everything on the planet including them. They're worse than bad.

[Big Joe]

I think about this in terms of rules of engagement. I don't know about anyone else here (I'm certain there must be some) but I was in the military for 12 years. Going to a conflict zone we were always given the rules of engagement and it was made absolutely clear to us what we could, or could not, do. Speaking from the British forces point of view (because that's the only one I can speak for), those people who were non combatant would be considered civilians and would have to be treated as such.

But this is comics we're talking about, so who knows.

[Dark-Jacket]

Both humans and X-men have a point. But, creating a mass murder weapon (and to me at that point, everybody knows about bad sentinel futures) and comitting suicide bombing is more well-intentionned extermists rather than innocents, same for the x-men.

[People Of The Earth]

The human crew of the Orchis Forge should be considered as criminals to be apprehended.
Truth is there's no reason for them to be executed on the spot as some people are suggesting... If mutants are serious about becoming a sovereign nation and whatnot, that's something they must stay clear of doing at all cost.

[Big Joe]

The human crew of the Orchis Forge should be considered as criminals to be apprehended.
Truth is there's no reason for them to be executed on the spot as some people are suggesting... If mutants are serious about becoming a sovereign nation and whatnot, that's something they must stay clear of doing at all cost.

Criminals though? Are they acting outside the law of the nation they're working for? Are they acting outside international law? Or are they just doing something one nation (not yet fully accepted as a nation) finds abhorrent?

[Killerbee911]

Simple scenario Military Soldiers are clearing houses looking for terrorist, They are about to enter the house but from inside of the house a terrorist opens fire. What do the soldiers do? The answer is call airstrike in on that house. Why? to go inside put themselves at significant risk. Apply that logic to the X-men they have to destroy Mother Mold going into the base means casualties for the X-men . So the X-men best choice on that mission was to blow up the base. If you hear that the Military is hitting strategic military targets that might mean Weapons facilities and Military bases but that also might mean Fuel Depots, Power stations, Factories that build various things those later things don't generally carry military personnel. If means winning there is some level of civilian collateral that most military understand will happen.

The X-men being noble heroes picked the most civilian friendly plan in that situation they could have done this decision probably cost them their lives on the mission. The smart choice for the mission would been to have mutant long range destructive powers blow it up or have nightcrawler teleport in with a bomb and blow it up the base. Innocent people don't build killer robots that commit genocide of 16 million people. Of course I am not saying the X-men raid the base and shoot every person inside whether they are surrendering or not BUT I have no problems with X-men viewing the "civilians" as conspirators and willing participants and executing a safer plan for the survival of the X-men on the mission. Everybody on the space base is complicit in the actions and are responsible for the deaths when the those machines go online. There was no need for X-men to pick the friendly solution.

[Big Joe]

Simple scenario Military Soldiers are clearing houses looking for terrorist, They are about to enter the house but from inside of the house a terrorist opens fire. What do the soldiers do? The answer is call airstrike in on that house.

Yeah, see that's why I distinguish between the British forces and anyone else, because I know that the UK forces would NOT do that. First they would try to find out whether any hostages were being held, then if civilians were being used as human shields, then they'd try to ascertain whether they could achieve their desired outcome, without damage to surrounding buildings and civilians, with what they have on the ground. An air strike would be the absolute last resort. I'm assuming it would be similar with the military of most countries.

[Su_Whisterfield]

Notice how Wolverine carries out his part of the unhitching of Mother Mode and it involves slicing and dicing station personnel. In the very next panel, Nightcrawler has tied two of them up.
Simple but good example of their individual modus operandi and characters.

[HeartofTheStoriesWeTell]

Simple scenario Military Soldiers are clearing houses looking for terrorist, They are about to enter the house but from inside of the house a terrorist opens fire. What do the soldiers do? The answer is call airstrike in on that house. Why? to go inside put themselves at significant risk. Apply that logic to the X-men they have to destroy Mother Mold going into the base means casualties for the X-men . So the X-men best choice on that mission was to blow up the base. If you hear that the Military is hitting strategic military targets that might mean Weapons facilities and Military bases but that also might mean Fuel Depots, Power stations, Factories that build various things those later things don't generally carry military personnel. If means winning there is some level of civilian collateral that most military understand will happen.

The X-men being noble heroes picked the most civilian friendly plan in that situation they could have done this decision probably cost them their lives on the mission. The smart choice for the mission would been to have mutant long range destructive powers blow it up or have nightcrawler teleport in with a bomb and blow it up the base. Innocent people don't build killer robots that commit genocide of 16 million people. Of course I am not saying the X-men raid the base and shoot every person inside whether they are surrendering or not BUT I have no problems with X-men viewing the "civilians" as conspirators and willing participants and executing a safer plan for the survival of the X-men on the mission. Everybody on the space base is complicit in the actions and are responsible for the deaths when the those machines go online. There was no need for X-men to pick the friendly solution.

What military are you talking about that calls air strikes against houses???
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