HoX: Should the crew of the Orchis Forge be considered 'Innocent Civilians'?

[jmc247]

Yeah, see that's why I distinguish between the British forces and anyone else, because I know that the UK forces would NOT do that. First they would try to find out whether any hostages were being held, then if civilians were being used as human shields, then they'd try to ascertain whether they could achieve their desired outcome, without damage to surrounding buildings and civilians, with what they have on the ground. An air strike would be the absolute last resort. I'm assuming it would be similar with the military of most countries.

The Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) that governs wars on the international sphere allows you to bomb a house with enemy combatants (and civilians) in it who refuse to surrender. EU law does not which is why British troops have been for several years been hounded by EU lawyers.

There was a lot of consternation in the US military last decade that it was under media pressure forcing them to go well beyond what it had to do under the LOAC and they would have been right they were going beyond the Geneva convention in many of their urban combat battles, but COIN operations or fighting terrorists are as much political affairs as anything else so one can't completely ignore the political/media side. I will say when fighting ISIS in Mosul the gloves did come off and the rules of engagement were closer to Vietnam or Korea levels. Iraqi, French and American rockets were pounding the city and air power was helping the ISF overcome enemy entrenched in buildings. In WW2 or ACW we would have burned the city down with incendiaries before any troops were sent in.

Is it acceptable in war under the Law of Armed Conflicts today to bomb a military facility with thousands of contractors? Yes. But, there are political implications to whatever you do when at war or in this case undeclared war.

[Knives]

Did any of these so-called civilians worry that Sentinels kill mutant childrens or babies?

I think the answer is quite obvious .

[RachelGrey]

Building a weapon that will be used to commit genocide toward another race or nation is most definitely an act of war. The members of Orchis are Enemy Combatants toward the mutant race and the nation of Krakoa. In fact now that the mutants have formed an independent country they can now make cases to the united nations in regards to genocidal acts of other countries toward mutants. Krakoa has already signed a trade agreement with the United States and have been given the right to escort all mutants safely off American soil. This technically means at the very least the American government has acknowledged that Krakoa is a nation state and I assume they have rights under United Nations treaties.

The Orchis facility was a clandestine facility that was building a weapon of mass destruction with which to attack Krakoa. Look at what they intended to do once Mother Mold came on line, they were going to transport the facility over Krakoa and begin their attack against the Krakoan nation. Krakoa sent out spies from their clandestine services branch and found evidence that Orchis was engineering a weapon and preparing for an attack. The used this intel to prepare a counter offensive and take down the Orchis facility before it could unleash the weapon of mass destruction on the Krakoan nation. This is no different from the actions Mossad took in the 50's and 60's to secure the nation status of Israel against overwhelming hatred and prejudice. The actions of Mossad meant that Israel was ready for several attacks that were made against them, Mossad were also integral in hunting down many of the Nazi commanders who managed to escape prosecution at the end of World War II.

So technically if the mutant government of Krakoa takes the same kind of action, their X-Force clandestine services branch would take action to hunt down the leadership of different racist organizations that have committed war crimes and genocide against the mutant race.

[useridgoeshere]

They were building in safe guards...both hard and software...until the x men attacked

Safeguards to protect humans and keep them in control of their mutant-murdering robots. There are no safeguards for mutants from Sentinels.

[Tycon]

The X-Men taking down Nazi scientists who are building a giant birthing chamber for mass-genocidal robots and the US murdering millions of innocents after already securing a sea blockade are not in any way comparable.

[hawkeyefan]

I refer you all to the film Clerks, which answered this question 25 years ago.

[Wind Rider]

Nope. They are enemy combatants and had it coming . I thought these X-Men went out like bosses (most of them anyway - Jean got a bit of raw deal).

[Criticalfan]

Every human on the Orchis Forge station is an enemy combatant, but still subject to rules of war, etc.

The security personnel are better armed, but the civilians are the ordnance, logistics, HQ, comms, kitchen, motor pool, etc. who would form an armed resistance if attacked and who are also part of the 'war machine' by equipping the security and also in their building anti-mutant weaponry. The defined scope of the mutants' mission is to stop the war effort of the humans with only as much bloodshed as necessary. Whoever is resisting the raid should stop if they want to not die; whoever does not want to die can disarm and be taken prisoner.

The mutants have the upper hand here, but are obligated to fight only hard enough to make the humans realize this imbalance of strength. (No Sabretooth extra-butchery)

Nightcrawler is doing it well, neutralizing threats and ending active resistance. Wolverine is killing hopefully only those he 'needs' to, meaning those who insist on staying between him and the locks. Monet fights in defense of Jean and her own life; even if it were lab coat people swarming her, she can fight them (they're fighting her, after all).

[anyajenkins]

The X-men being noble heroes picked the most civilian friendly plan in that situation they could have done this decision probably cost them their lives on the mission. The smart choice for the mission would been to have mutant long range destructive powers blow it up or have nightcrawler teleport in with a bomb and blow it up the base.

Not really, the easiest (and some what civilian friendly) way would be to have the TK’s and magnet people throw mother mold into the sun. The go to the base for hand to hand combat was just dumb.

[Alphaxman]

I voted: No - Criminals (to be apprehended) -- but only the support crew. If the security unit dies, then they die. The scientists should all face war crime charges.

[nx01a]

They're all evil and complicit in planning genocide.
Storm and Magneto should have made a solar flare to destroy the station, taking out the Mother Mold and its creators as an act of self defense.

[Shreene]

Nope. They are enemy combatants and had it coming . I thought these X-Men went out like bosses (most of them anyway - Jean got a bit of raw deal).

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Jean crushed to death in space?

[The tall man]

So if humans cannot build Sentinels to protect themselves from mutant aggression then how do you suggest they defend themselves? Unless some believe that there is no mutant aggression against humans, that all mutants are peaceful loving people who just want harmony ( they are not, mutants can be every bit as bigoted, as murderous and as evil as any human); only difference is they have a far greater capacity to do harm by virtue of their powers. Average humans don't have access to Sentinels or nanites but the average mutant could probably incinerate or shut off the mind of a human easily. Seems like some just want humans to lay down and accept extinction. Also if the humans decide to do a retaliatory attack on Krakoa for the attack on Orchis will that be justified? And if non X-men mutants are killed in said attack are they deemed enemy combatants for associating with mutant terrorists? Will they be seen as providing aid and support to the X-men in terrorist acts against foreign governments? It goes both ways.

[HomoSuperior]

The architect of the Berlin holocaust memorial notes it is dedicated to “systems of order that lose touch with humanity.” That dedication demarcates a historical point of education by wisely calling out those who enabled, without directly contributing to, the holocaust’s systemic persecution and murder. From that event forward, ignorance is no excuse. All should be accountable for knowing their choices before choosing them.



In essence, The Orchis Forge embodies a system of order that has lost touch with humanity. Although it’s not uncommon to compartmentalize work, those who help build the Forge cannot hide behind claims of “I didn’t know what I was making...” or “I was just doing my job...” In some ways the Mother Mold highlights a more insidious excuse: “I was only making something (Mother Mold) that makes things (Master Molds) that could make things (Sentinels) to murder things.” The degrees of separation between a perpetrator and crime is the stuff of old ethical debates. And compartmentalization is one of the ways businesses and governments shield themselves from ethical debates.

Compartmentalizing work means to reduce work into smaller technical parts without sharing its broader context or objective. Compartmentalizing in bad faith and under the worst circumstances, deprives people of their ethical choices. Doing so cynically believes people are too lazy to care about what they are enabling and they just want a paycheck.

Imagine being a plumber called in to work on a nuclear weapon’s cooling system. But you aren’t permitted to know what it is that you are working on. To your technical perspective, it’s just a cooling system that needs maintenance. Would you accept the job? The facility you are called to seems awfully high security. Shouldn’t you ask about the nature of the work? If it’s not possible to know what you’re enabling, shouldn’t you decline the work?

The above hypothetical situation illustrates a very real ethical dilemma that is upon us as more aspects of business convert to digital and get chopped up as ‘on demand’ tasks. For example, Amazon’s “Mechanical Turk” service chops up labor into fine grained parts without providing workers context. Artist Aaron Koblin and Takashi Kawashima’s “10,000 cents” project alludes to the Amazon service’s ethical implications. The pair used Amazon’s service for tasking thousands of individuals working in isolation from one another to paint a tiny part of a $100 bill without knowledge of the overall task. Workers were paid one cent each via Amazon’s Mechanical Turk distributed labor tool. The total labor cost to create the bill, the artwork being created, and the reproductions made available for purchase were all $100. In this example compartmentalization was used to deprive workers knowledge of the value they were creating and, perhaps more importantly, how their work might be utilized for undermining ethics.

http://www.aaronkoblin.com/project/10000-cents/

Summing it up, it’s fashionable to make responsible consumer choices ranging from locally-sourced food to not contributing to demand for single-use plastics. But what about your job especially if you work in tech? Should you accept work without knowing the bigger picture? Should you be absolved from its ethical implications? Shouldn’t you inquire about objectives and outcomes (sought) before engaging in the work? If others cannot or will not share those details, your sense of purpose and values may dictate that you should decline the opportunity.

[AJpyro]

In a world where Ultron is a thing and keeps coming back, the MM is a bad idea in the making. Like people keep tellonh the X-Men that there are alternatives to war, there are alternatives to Death Machines that Genocide.

The Orchis are enemy combatants that should be stopped by any means.