View Poll Results: What say you?

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  • Yes - Innocent Civilians (to be spared)

    3 2.78%
  • No - Criminals (to be apprehended)

    31 28.70%
  • No - Enemy Combatants (to be stopped by any means necessary)

    69 63.89%
  • Other

    5 4.63%
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartofTheStoriesWeTell View Post
    When did anyone in orchis forge say anything about genocide?

    Are we even reading the same story...
    Umm, what do you think an artificial intelligence sentinel building factory is for exactly? It's meant to output thousands of Sentinels as fast possible, and you don't build thousands of Sentinels if you don't plan to use them to exterminate mutants off the face of the Earth. Also, every possible future Moira has explored the humans built Mother Mold, developed Nimrod, and perpetuated mass genocide on the mutant race in every single possible future she has tried so far.

    Sure when she sided with Apocalypse they gave as good as they got and decimated the human race to some extent as well, but that's honestly as far as they got, and even in that future the Sentinel factory kept building better and better Sentinels which eventually enslaved humanity while on their course to exterminate mutants.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartofTheStoriesWeTell View Post
    When did anyone in orchis forge say anything about genocide?

    Are we even reading the same story...
    What do you think Sentinels do? See Days of Future Past and Genosha.

  3. #78
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    Humans have every right to defend themselves, if mutants decide to attack them what are they to do? Just as some believe that mutants should do anything to protect themselves so too should humans. The X-men may talk about peaceful coexistence or at least they used to, but not all mutants have that mindset. Power corrupts and mutants have vast power advantages over humans; Sentinels and power dampening nanites are humanity's way of achieving a power equilibrium. Now any Government that unleashes these weapons unprovoked should be held accountable but humans should definitely have them as a counter balance to mutant abilities.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Humans have every right to defend themselves, if mutants decide to attack them what are they to do? Just as some believe that mutants should do anything to protect themselves so too should humans. The X-men may talk about peaceful coexistence or at least they used to, but not all mutants have that mindset. Power corrupts and mutants have vast power advantages over humans; Sentinels and power dampening nanites are humanity's way of achieving a power equilibrium. Now any Government that unleashes these weapons unprovoked should be held accountable but humans should definitely have them as a counter balance to mutant abilities.
    So should mutants put their best minds together to create sentinels of their own that will fight humans if they get out of control? Humans aren't putting themselves at risk when they send sentinels but mutants are at risk when they are the weapon themselves. I mean only just in case of course.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  5. #80
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Humans have every right to defend themselves, if mutants decide to attack them what are they to do? Just as some believe that mutants should do anything to protect themselves so too should humans. The X-men may talk about peaceful coexistence or at least they used to, but not all mutants have that mindset. Power corrupts and mutants have vast power advantages over humans; Sentinels and power dampening nanites are humanity's way of achieving a power equilibrium. Now any Government that unleashes these weapons unprovoked should be held accountable but humans should definitely have them as a counter balance to mutant abilities.
    The problem with that is, who is going to hold those governments accountable for an unprovoked attack on mutants when nearly all humans in-universe are depicted as uniformly fearful of mutant abilities to the point of coming up with allegedly preventative measures that then get turned into preemptive measures self-justified by the idea of "do it to them before they do it to us," thus ironically provoking the very attacks on humankind by mutants that they claim they're trying to head off in the first place? And this, from a species that has a long and bad history, both in real life and in-universe, of attempting to annihilate populations for the crime of being different from the majority population in some way and coming up with excuses to justify themselves after the fact.

    Besides, the X-Men repeatedly turned the other cheek while humans repeatedly attempted to wipe them out from nothing more than fear and prejudice, so at some point, the unfortunate but inevitable conclusion was, to quote Magneto to Xavier in X-Men: First Class, "Peace was never an option." Both races/species may have now assumed a more confrontational footing toward each other, but humans were there first and they --- or their weapons --- have killed millions upon millions more mutants than mutants have ever killed humans.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    Criminals though? Are they acting outside the law of the nation they're working for? Are they acting outside international law? Or are they just doing something one nation (not yet fully accepted as a nation) finds abhorrent?
    Criminals, yes. And I'm assuming Orchis is a rogue organisation, given its nature, and definitely acting outside international law.
    Otherwise, the X-men assault of their space station would be straight up act of war. That would fly in the face of what their leader are trying to create: a real sovereign state.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Humans have every right to defend themselves, if mutants decide to attack them what are they to do? Just as some believe that mutants should do anything to protect themselves so too should humans. The X-men may talk about peaceful coexistence or at least they used to, but not all mutants have that mindset. Power corrupts and mutants have vast power advantages over humans; Sentinels and power dampening nanites are humanity's way of achieving a power equilibrium. Now any Government that unleashes these weapons unprovoked should be held accountable but humans should definitely have them as a counter balance to mutant abilities.
    They can. The idea that superhumans shouldn't be feared by the general population is laughable, especially mutants whose powers can manifest erratically the first time and harm anyone in the vicinity. Countries should have measures in place to deal with rogue superhumans, including rogue mutants and mutants with unbalanced powerset.
    Now, should those measures include Sentinels ? If they are programmed to kill indiscriminately any mutant on sight, then no, absolutely not. That's why Orchis had to be stopped, they were taking things too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Building a weapon that will be used to commit genocide toward another race or nation is most definitely an act of war. The members of Orchis are Enemy Combatants toward the mutant race and the nation of Krakoa. In fact now that the mutants have formed an independent country they can now make cases to the united nations in regards to genocidal acts of other countries toward mutants. Krakoa has already signed a trade agreement with the United States and have been given the right to escort all mutants safely off American soil. This technically means at the very least the American government has acknowledged that Krakoa is a nation state and I assume they have rights under United Nations treaties.

    The Orchis facility was a clandestine facility that was building a weapon of mass destruction with which to attack Krakoa. Look at what they intended to do once Mother Mold came on line, they were going to transport the facility over Krakoa and begin their attack against the Krakoan nation. Krakoa sent out spies from their clandestine services branch and found evidence that Orchis was engineering a weapon and preparing for an attack. The used this intel to prepare a counter offensive and take down the Orchis facility before it could unleash the weapon of mass destruction on the Krakoan nation. This is no different from the actions Mossad took in the 50's and 60's to secure the nation status of Israel against overwhelming hatred and prejudice. The actions of Mossad meant that Israel was ready for several attacks that were made against them, Mossad were also integral in hunting down many of the Nazi commanders who managed to escape prosecution at the end of World War II.

    So technically if the mutant government of Krakoa takes the same kind of action, their X-Force clandestine services branch would take action to hunt down the leadership of different racist organizations that have committed war crimes and genocide against the mutant race.
    An act of war ? Orchis represents no one but themselves so far in this story, at best you can speak of their activities as terrotist in nature.
    No one is saying they should have been left to their own devices, they obviously shouldn't. The question is whether or not killing civilians working for this organisation was acceptable. Personally I don't think so. They are either criminals or people who associated themselves with criminals and should be treated accordingly. Captured whenever possible to be trialed later on. You said it yourself, the mutants of Krakoa had ground to take things to the UN.
    Now, obviously the goal of their attack on the Orchis space station wasn't to capture anyone, so it didn't happen.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 09-09-2019 at 08:29 PM.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


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  8. #83
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    Straight out. Nope.

    They should have just taken it out.

    What's the world going to do? Admit publicly that it was building a giant death machine out in space with plans to deploy it someplace on Earth?

    Given the Genoshan massacre, they'd have trouble trying to explain it away.

  9. #84
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosfist View Post
    So like Israel and the Palestinians huh?
    Israel/Palestine parallels are always a dangerous thing to make, so I choose not to answer that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    You say that as if Baseline Humans can't defend themselves if need be.
    Baseline humans can defend themselves if mutants are trying to destroy them. If mutants are just trying to live, be happy, end disease, and prevent extinction level asteroids from hitting Earth, then humans should shut up and be happy that their offspring just might have the ability to fly... or blink to destroy mountains. The rise of mutants can be a seamless continuation of human civilization, not a full stop at the end of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  10. #85
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    They're not innocent. But not everyone of them deserve to die.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Criminals, yes. And I'm assuming Orchis is a rogue organisation, given its nature, and definitely acting outside international law.
    Otherwise, the X-men assault of their space station would be straight up act of war. That would fly in the face of what their leader are trying to create: a real sovereign state.
    AS I understand it Orchis is, kind of, a rogue organisation. But I also think it must be known to exist by some governments, there was a lot about its makeup in HoX 1 and it included Alpha Flight and SHIELD as well as the likes of AIM and Hydra so maybe no actual government involvement, but at least knowledge of what is going on. Also the human powers haven't yet accepted Krakoa as a nation state, those "diplomats" in HoX 1 were all planted to try to gain advantage, so as you rightly say the mutant leaders are still striving for recognition of their sovereign status.

    Will this help in their quest?

    It could be interesting to see what the reaction from the governments of other countries might be to what has happened, but I guess they have deniability and will be able to say they weren't involved. I can imagine some taking the opportunity to jump on to the X-Men side of the fence and condemn Orchis. I'd be interested to know your views.

  12. #87
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    Anybody dumb enough to build genocidal Sentinels deserve a dirt nap.

    Those things ultimately help no one. Hell even the Sentinels think humans are stupid. Lol

    The entire station should have burned. No Innocents.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Poor humans, they are helpless, they need to build Sentinels, it is not as if they literally had gods like Thor to protect them from those nasty mutants.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartofTheStoriesWeTell View Post
    When did anyone in orchis forge say anything about genocide?

    Are we even reading the same story...
    Yeah man, sentinels are usually built for stuff like gardening and cleaning, what's with the association with genocide
    There's literally no precedent for that
    Hunting's no fun when your prey doesn't move.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Poor humans, they are helpless, they need to build Sentinels, it is not as if they literally had gods like Thor to protect them from those nasty mutants.
    There has to eventually be an on panel human reaction en masse to the first time their precious Sentinels eventually massacre non mutant supers.

    Just curious as to how they react when the murder buckets go all skynet.

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