HoX: Should the crew of the Orchis Forge be considered 'Innocent Civilians'?

[Jackraow21]

I’m with Logan on this one. Innocent civilians don’t build machines to exterminate a species.

Notice how Wolverine carries out his part of the unhitching of Mother Mode and it involves slicing and dicing station personnel. In the very next panel, Nightcrawler has tied two of them up.
Simple but good example of their individual modus operandi and characters.

That was such a great juxtaposition. Really well done by Hickman and Larraz.

[Triniking1234]

Kill them all.

[JamJams]

Notice how Wolverine carries out his part of the unhitching of Mother Mode and it involves slicing and dicing station personnel. In the very next panel, Nightcrawler has tied two of them up.
Simple but good example of their individual modus operandi and characters.

Came here to say exactly this. The armed security are trying to kill you so killing them in self-defense is fine. The scientists/remaining crew that may be unarmed but are still an indirect threat so it's fine to just knock them out and tie them up.

[Devaishwarya]

No...not innocent in the least.
However, if they surrender lock them up...if they attack, kill them...kill them HARD!!!

[Big Joe]

What military are you talking about that calls air strikes against houses???
(

It is almost what I'm trying to say. You can understand why people with no background in the military might think that because of what they may have seen on television and in films, but seriously? Imagine the backlash?

What the X-Men are doing looks, at best, like the act of a rogue state (in the eyes of the UN, say, or individual countries) or at worst like some kind of state sponsored terrorism. Yes, I know, it's just comics, and for the progression of the story I'm happy to roll with it. But really to come up with something about soldiers ordering deliberate air attacks on houses is groundless in reality, and more than a little silly.

[Su_Whisterfield]

Came here to say exactly this. The armed security are trying to kill you so killing them in self-defense is fine. The scientists/remaining crew that may be unarmed but are still an indirect threat so it's fine to just knock them out and tie them up.

Except, if Kurt had ‘ported into armed security, he’d still have only knocked them about. And visa versa for Logan, the scientists would have been sushi.

[Dthirds3]

Kill them, and the avengers to( except she-hulk)

[Big Joe]

No...not innocent in the least.
However, if they surrender lock them up...if they attack, kill them...kill them HARD!!!

Again, problematic.

Under what jurisdiction do the X-Men lock people up? What are nation states going to think if their sovereign territory (I get that it's in space, but I'm sure it's considered someone's territory) is invaded and their citizens captured and locked up? They are making themselves into terrorists themselves here, in the eyes of the world, no matter how justified they think their actions are. Just look at what the world's governments thought of the ANC after Sharpeville when they, quite rightly, stepped up an armed campaign.

So this is an act of war by the X-Men, certainly in the eyes of the rest of the world's governments, no matter how justified it may be, and no matter that they feel they are reacting to a declaration of war against themselves. Just as an aside, Xavier, Apocalypse and Magneto are clever enough to know that the governments of the world will see it that way as well.

[Chris0013]

They are civilians working in a munitions factory during a time of war. You don't say "That factory is building weapons to kill us....but the people working there are civilians so we won't bomb it."

[HeartofTheStoriesWeTell]

They are civilians working in a munitions factory during a time of war. You don't say "That factory is building weapons to kill us....but the people working there are civilians so we won't bomb it."

Please god...tell me you are not at all anyway related to the pentagon in your line of work.

[coveredinbees]

No, they killed Husk and Angel.

[Whim]

It's messed up the so called heroes of the marvel universe never do anything about Sentinels since they aren't effected.

What about the mutants non affiliated? Do they think they are safe for now? Never works that way. You'd think the FF would at least be looking at this stuff for Franklin's safety.

[Killerbee911]

Yeah, see that's why I distinguish between the British forces and anyone else, because I know that the UK forces would NOT do that. First they would try to find out whether any hostages were being held, then if civilians were being used as human shields, then they'd try to ascertain whether they could achieve their desired outcome, without damage to surrounding buildings and civilians, with what they have on the ground. An air strike would be the absolute last resort. I'm assuming it would be similar with the military of most countries.

There are some small caveats to the situation but pretty much every military that has the support is working like that. How you going to find out if they are hostage held inside? British troops can see through buildings? Come on now there is no way to tell who inside of these houses/buildings. You are aren't risking your men to go inside to find out. Sometimes you mark building/area for the next set of people to look for it or call in for an airstrike. The airstrike is preferable when you have access to call in them. People do understand that I am talking about a general warzone in a city type area? right. Most people have clear out but you can never fully be sure of what is in a building. Lose a couple of men clearing a building your attitude on process changes quite a bit.

But apparently we need examples of different military hitting stuff similar to what I am talking about

Hellfire on building
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Vq6XU7T0s

The Brits
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADa8...has_verified=1

Hey look a house
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk__2n6S9MA

another one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaSOMEIe1Bg

Isreali targeting building complex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQDwOyWj8O0

What military are you talking about that calls air strikes against houses???

Building , Houses, Huts, Caves,etc

Anyways like said give the choice being losing X-men and destroying the base. Destroying the base would be the option

So this is an act of war by the X-Men, certainly in the eyes of the rest of the world's governments, no matter how justified it may be, and no matter that they feel they are reacting to a declaration of war against themselves. ll.

Destroying Hydra, Aim, and Hammer base near the Sun? Nah no government is saying anything about it that or are the worlds government going to War for terrorist now?

[Graphicisnovel]

You'd think the FF would at least be looking at this stuff for Franklin's safety.

We don't know that they aren't. they could be. We just know theyre not being as aggressive about it as the X-men.

[Big Joe]

They are civilians working in a munitions factory during a time of war. You don't say "That factory is building weapons to kill us....but the people working there are civilians so we won't bomb it."

You're right, of course. This from the International Red Cross, relating to the law of armed conflict. Is it a time of war though? Has war been declared properly? Remember "an authorised party of a national government" has to make a speech or sign a document in order to enact a state of war between countries. If Krakoa is not properly recognised as a nation state then their actions are terrorism rather than war (I was taught a lot of what I thought was useless while I was serving - who'd have thought it would come in handy when discussing comics)

The law should not be misunderstood to mean that civilians have
absolute immunity from attack in all cases. They certainly have immunity
from direct attack. However, military objectives do not stop being military
objectives just because civilians are present; the latter share the danger
of being there. Care must nevertheless be taken, as we know, to limit
civilian collateral damage to the absolute minimum. For example, civilians
working in a munitions, weapons or aircraft factory run a risk by being
there and are very much part of a legitimate military objective. The civilian
driver of an oil tanker vehicle being used for military purposes, however,
is only part of a legitimate objective while piloting the tanker. The same
applies to workers when they are at home or outside their factory; they
are then protected against attack.