HoX: Should the crew of the Orchis Forge be considered 'Innocent Civilians'?

[The tall man]

Poor humans, they are helpless, they need to build Sentinels, it is not as if they literally had gods like Thor to protect them from those nasty mutants.

Why should they have to rely on gods or other superhumans to protect them when they have the means to protect themselves? Besides superhumans/gods are unreliable and humans have to be able to stand on their own if no heroes are around. Mutantkind has every right to defend themselves no doubt as there are humans who want to wipe them out but humans have to be able to defend themselves as well.

[Snoop Dogg]

If humans wanna go Mother 3 on the mutants with the technology, they should build Mandroids, get in the Mandroids, and fight them themselves.

[CoCoBandz]

Why should they have to rely on gods or other superhumans to protect them when they have the means to protect themselves? Besides superhumans/gods are unreliable and humans have to be able to stand on their own if no heroes are around. Mutantkind has every right to defend themselves no doubt as there are humans who want to wipe them out but humans have to be able to defend themselves as well.

How is creating genocidal hunting machines a means of defense? That's just being evil on top of being those humans who want to wipe mutants out.

Ironically they're creating the very things that turn around and kill the heroes who would otherwise have protected them.

[Glio]

Why should they have to rely on gods or other superhumans to protect them when they have the means to protect themselves? Besides superhumans/gods are unreliable and humans have to be able to stand on their own if no heroes are around. Mutantkind has every right to defend themselves no doubt as there are humans who want to wipe them out but humans have to be able to defend themselves as well.

And why they invest billions in the mutants and not against the aliens, HYDRA, demons or a thousand more dangerous things than the X-Men out there.

[CoCoBandz]

And why they invest billions in the mutants and not against the aliens, HYDRA, demons or a thousand more dangerous things than the X-Men out there.

But that's what the Avengers are for. Wait....

[Glio]

But that's what the Avengers are for. Wait....

That. Humans care more about mutants because in that case they can't be sure that the Avengers will help them.

Because maybe they are not right.

If the Skrulls invade them, they know that their heroes are going to save them. But what if they decide to attack the mutants? They are not sure of receiving their help.

That was an argument that Phoenix!Scott made when he said No More Avengers. That the humans while they had their heroes were always going to dare more and more against the mutants because if they decided to rebel, the superheroes would be their last line of defense. But humans can't be sure. The Avengers and the other superheroes in a human / mutant conflict is unclear how they will react because more than loyalty for their race they have is that they are mostly good people. And that makes them unpredictable.

And that unpredictability is why they need the Sentinel. Because robots are not going to question orders like "This mutant has to be killed."

That is why Sentinels are intrinsically evil in the context of mutants / humans.

[People Of The Earth]

AS I understand it Orchis is, kind of, a rogue organisation. But I also think it must be known to exist by some governments, there was a lot about its makeup in HoX 1 and it included Alpha Flight and SHIELD as well as the likes of AIM and Hydra so maybe no actual government involvement, but at least knowledge of what is going on. Also the human powers haven't yet accepted Krakoa as a nation state, those "diplomats" in HoX 1 were all planted to try to gain advantage, so as you rightly say the mutant leaders are still striving for recognition of their sovereign status.

Will this help in their quest?

It could be interesting to see what the reaction from the governments of other countries might be to what has happened, but I guess they have deniability and will be able to say they weren't involved. I can imagine some taking the opportunity to jump on to the X-Men side of the fence and condemn Orchis. I'd be interested to know your views.

Logically, yes. There has to be intelligence services aware of their existence left and right, either because of the sheer resources involved for their running or the fact Orchis specifically recruited former personnel of known organisations like AIM, SHIELD, Hydra among others. That being said, knowing doesn't mean agreeing per se. Governments can be aware of an existing terror group without condonning its actions, in fact a lot of terror groups are being observed and spied upon by countries before an intervention is decided. For all we know, that was the case with Orchis… Who knows. As it is, Orchis is a rogue organisation, that much seems clear to me though.
Also, Krakoa' status as a sovereign country is still fragile on the international scene, that's precisely why they can't proceed all willy-nilly on this mission if they care about said status... Their goal was to prevent Mother Mold going online, not kill everyone involved on sight. I guess we'll know whether or not the mission impacted negatively their chance of recognition as a state in the next issues, if we get to see the aftermath of the operation from Hickman. I do think they, the X-Men, have enough evidence to justify this operation if other nations put them on the spot for it… If it comes to them having to "justify" anything that is - maybe they did everyone a favor by taking this station out since it doesn't look like Orchis has the backing of the UN or any major nation of the world. Maybe it will open up an opportunity for Krakoa' status if Xavier decide to expose the involvement of former members of known organisation to the UN to try and leverage for Krakoa's recognition for example.
A contratio, that could also reignite global anti-mutant policies. If it was known, worldwide, that mutankind would eclipse the rest of humankind in the span of one generation, it would send the peoples and their governments into a frenzy for survival. That little fact hasn't been made public beyond Orchis to my knowledge.

[People Of The Earth]

And why they invest billions in the mutants and not against the aliens, HYDRA, demons or a thousand more dangerous things than the X-Men out there.

They do, that's litteraly why organizations like SHIELD, SWORD or Alpha Flight were created and funded for example. Turns out X-books focus on mutants so it's normal they mostly deal with the existing response to mutants, rogue or otherwise, rather than aliens and Hydra. I assure you, outside of the X-world, they are being dealt with too, in other, different stories.

That. Humans care more about mutants because in that case they can't be sure that the Avengers will help them.

Because maybe they are not right.

If the Skrulls invade them, they know that their heroes are going to save them. But what if they decide to attack the mutants? They are not sure of receiving their help.

That was an argument that Phoenix!Scott made when he said No More Avengers. That the humans while they had their heroes were always going to dare more and more against the mutants because if they decided to rebel, the superheroes would be their last line of defense. But humans can't be sure. The Avengers and the other superheroes in a human / mutant conflict is unclear how they will react because more than loyalty for their race they have is that they are mostly good people. And that makes them unpredictable.

And that unpredictability is why they need the Sentinel. Because robots are not going to question orders like "This mutant has to be killed."

That is why Sentinels are intrinsically evil in the context of mutants / humans.

Sapiens are right to fear mutants, let's not pretend they aren't dangerous individuals. Whenever a mutant has his or her power emerge, it's a roll dice on whether or not people in the direct vicinity will be harmed, maimed, killed or not. Let's stop the hypocrisy right there.
That's also the reason why I don't like when people use mutants as stand-in for real life minorities because in real life, having a different skin color or a different sexual orientation or what have you is never, ever going to endanger the life of your neighboor.
Anyway, Sentinels are weapons, they aren't intrinsically good or evil. They are tools, tools used and directed by individuals or groups of individuals. In the hand of evil men, yes, they are extremely dangerous, the same way a knife, a hammer, a gun or a bomb will be devastating in the same hands.
That in the Marvel universe, nations decide to equip themselves with those tools to stave off rogue mutants like the Brotherhood of mutants for example, that's pretty understandable. In fact, it would be silly of them not to do so and rely on the good will and random appearances of superheroes to protect themselves. Superheroes who could be prone to turncoating, you are absolutely right, either by heart or by manipulation/coercion.
It's when Sentinels are being programmed and deployed in agressive/proactive campaigns that their use becomes unacceptable. And that falls on the head of the people programming them and deciding to use them to further their own agendas. Replace them with tanks and you will still have this issue. Now, we can debate on the merits of creating weapons regardless of their shape or form, but that's an entirely different debate.

[Triniking1234]

They do, that's litteraly why organizations like SHIELD, SWORD or Alpha Flight were created and funded for example. Turns out X-books focus on mutants so it's normal they mostly deal with the existing response to mutants, rogue or otherwise, rather than aliens and Hydra. I assure you, outside of the X-world, they are being dealt with too, in other, different stories.

True. The US Government in Marvel spends taxpayer money to deal with Hulk nonsense.

[Criticalfan]

Humans have every right to defend themselves, if mutants decide to attack them what are they to do? Just as some believe that mutants should do anything to protect themselves so too should humans. The X-men may talk about peaceful coexistence or at least they used to, but not all mutants have that mindset. Power corrupts and mutants have vast power advantages over humans; Sentinels and power dampening nanites are humanity's way of achieving a power equilibrium. Now any Government that unleashes these weapons unprovoked should be held accountable but humans should definitely have them as a counter balance to mutant abilities.

You should notice the humans aren't creating Sentinels to protect themselves against the Hulk or the Sinister Six, or even HYDRA. Just against mutants.

The Avengers could be how humanity protects themselves. Also the Lee/Kirby X-Men setup where the X-Men worked with the FBI, or the 90's X-Factor setup. You know, accountable, self-policing and not into genocide. The illusion that complete pre-emption and control of any outbursts can be achieved with robots is very stupid. It's all damage mitigation.

Remember if the humans weren't acting bigoted and murderous first, most of a young individual mutant's problems just disappear.

[Glio]

Sentinel are inherently evil from the moment they have such a specific purpose as "killing mutants."

They are not generic giant robots. They are not used against aliens or against demons. They are designed from the first line of code to the last nut to kill mutants.

[kidfresh512]

Even the cleaning crew on board should be wiped out. No questions asked. You know damn well you are mopping and cooking and cleaning for people plotting genocide. Screw the "but we were planning safeguards". Mutants have lived with death by sentinels forever. They have seen and heard stories about how it all goes wrong in alternative timelines and countless stories and accounts from future X-Men came back to warn them.

Not to mention Genosha and the random sentinel/Nimrod encounters through the years. Any mutant would be remiss to not start off thinking worst case scenario when they hear of a sentinel/nimrod operation even being discussed.

[Tycon]

Anyway, Sentinels are weapons, they aren't intrinsically good or evil. They are tools, tools used and directed by individuals or groups of individuals. In the hand of evil men, yes, they are extremely dangerous, the same way a knife, a hammer, a gun or a bomb will be devastating in the same hands.

Lol huh??? Trask developed these machines with an explicit anti-mutant bias. It’s literally a Sentinel’s core responsibility.

[Snoop Dogg]

#FreeJuston #AndHisBaby #JustTheBabyReally

[Tycon]

They should just combine the AI of all the “cutesy” Sentinel-types that writers have tried to introduce. Juston’s bæbee, that one gay Sentinel from Red, Cerebra. Just....smush them together.