"X-Men is an offshoot of Marvel" -- Is this a strictly modern view?

[AdamFTF]

X-Men is a part of the Marvel Universe and has been since the beginning. It always drew stuff from outside the X-Men books. The problem is that the stuff that got drawn in ended up becoming better known as "X-Men stuff" afterward. Adamantium was created for an Avengers story involving Ultron. Mystique and Deathbird were originally Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) villains. Also, Rogue's better known power-set came from Carol herself. Sabretooth was an Iron Fist villain. Wolverine first appeared in an issue of Incredible Hulk. Arcade was created for a Marvel Team-Up story that teamed Spider-Man with Captain Britain. Not to mention the whole Captain Britain mythos itself. Ka-Zar was a character way back in the Golden Age. Longshot and Mojo come from the Longshot miniseries which guest-starred Doctor Strange (a guy who frequently invokes the "Crimson Bands of Cytorrak", which are connected to the Juggernaut). The thing is that the X-Men franchise just kind of swallows this stuff up. Admittedly, part of the reason it's so easily swallowed is because most of it is more on the obscure side. Claremont in particular liked folding stuff from the less popular books he worked on in the '70s and '80s (Iron Fist, Ms. Marvel, Captain Britain) into X-Men where he could revisit it.

[Hybrid]

That's a very good point. It seems that the general MU stuff that the X-Men uses has a high tendency to be considered part of the X-Men brand afterwards, or at least more highly associated with it, than others. Longshot himself is an example. His debut miniseries had nothing to do with the X-Men, and it wasn't until later where he became part of the X-titles, joining the X-Men as one of the few notable non-mutant members in their history, while also bringing the Mojoworld (including Mojo himself, as well as recurring antagonist Spiral) into the X-Universe. My guess as to how that happened is that Longshot was created by Ann Nocenti, who also edited X-Men, which may have gotten those aspects inserted it. Interesting to think about.

Compare this to the Daily Bugle, which debuted in Spider-Man and has appeared prominently in other books such as Daredevil, but still remains closely associated with Spidey to the point where Sony holds the film rights. It never quite shook off the relation to Spider-Man in that way.

[Electricmastro]

Actually, aren't X-Men members usually pretty "segregated" away from largely non-mutant teams? I know Beast and Wolverine were on the Avengers for example, but I can't help but still have this feeling for some reason.

[Hybrid]

The New Warriors have had quite a few mutant members for a team considered adjacent to either Spider-Man or the Avengers, such as Vance Astro, Firestar, Namorita, Silhouette, and the '00s lineup (consisting of depowered mutants using tech).

Thunderbolts have had several mutant members, like Skein. There was also the Juggernaut, not a mutant, but from the X-Universe.

Cannonball and Sunspot became Avengers in Hickman's run, which was the best either character had been in a long time.

Guardians of the Galaxy '16 had Kitty Pryde in the place of Star-Lord.

[Digifiend]

Wiccan and Speed from the Young Avengers are probably mutants, because at the time of their creation, Scarlet Witch was. And the Champions have had three mutants on the active roster: Cyclops, Bombshell, and Dust. Bombshell comes from the Spider-Man franchise though. The Great Lakes Avengers are all mutants.

[Sutekh]

It’s funny because if they were introduced today they’d be going on about how they want to be Avengers. It’s part of the reason I’ve been worried about them coming to the MCU, because I fear they’ll be Avengers fanboys like Spider-Man.

I wonder if any of the *billions* of people whose lives were thrown into disarray by Stark's decision to snap them back five years later (having lost their homes, marriages, jobs, etc.) would be resentful of his choice of his daughter over their (billions of) lives. It might not be entirely rational (since it wasn't just his daughter he was saving, but the possibly millions of other people born post-snap, who would also have been 'un-created' if he rewound time to undo the snap), but no less unexpected than Zemo's reaction in Civil War. It would be kind of shocking (for at least some of the audience) to find out that not everybody on this brave new earth worships at the alter of Tony Stark, and that some new characters might even not be all that into him...

[davetvs]

Actually, aren't X-Men members usually pretty "segregated" away from largely non-mutant teams? I know Beast and Wolverine were on the Avengers for example, but I can't help but still have this feeling for some reason.

Rogue, Sunfire, Havok, Deadpool, and Storm have all been Avengers. Storm has also been on the Fantastic Four. Dazzler worked for SHIELD for a time, so did Kitty.

[Omnipitus]

The New Warriors have had quite a few mutant members for a team considered adjacent to either Spider-Man or the Avengers, such as Vance Astro, Firestar, Namorita, Silhouette, and the '00s lineup (consisting of depowered mutants using tech).

Thunderbolts have had several mutant members, like Skein. There was also the Juggernaut, not a mutant, but from the X-Universe.

Cannonball and Sunspot became Avengers in Hickman's run, which was the best either character had been in a long time.

Guardians of the Galaxy '16 had Kitty Pryde in the place of Star-Lord.

Then there is also the Champions (Angel and Iceman), Defenders (Angel, Iceman, and Beast), and the mini Last Defenders (Colossus, for 2 issues).

[Blind Wedjat]

It’s funny because if they were introduced today they’d be going on about how they want to be Avengers. It’s part of the reason I’ve been worried about them coming to the MCU, because I fear they’ll be Avengers fanboys like Spider-Man.

Is this really such a bad thing?

I mean, wouldn't it be a great way to add weight on the negative reaction to the sudden appearance and idea of mutants? Here's my line of thinking:

- As much as I despise the five year gap between Infinity War and Endgame (because it only benefitted Stark in having a daughter old enough), Marvel has a great opportunity to now use it a lot more wisely.

- A lot of weird **** is coming to the MCU within the next five to ten years. A lot of stuff to shake up the status quo of the universe:

- an uncolonised, formerly isolationist African nation is now the leading world superpower,

- the idea of a multiverse and alternative realities through time travel are now legitimate,

- a race of cosmic powered beings have been on Earth this whole time,

- vampires suddenly exist,

- a family of four have returned from whence they came with superpowers,

- and now a new race of people on Earth have been revealed,

- All of this happening after the entire universe was snapped out and then back into existence. The MCU is suddenly now a stranger place than ever before, growing from a simple alien invasion to a cosmic wide war.

- The heroes of the time before were undoubtedly the Avengers, and in spite of their controversies they have become legitimate world heroes, especially thanks to Stark's ultimate sacrifice to kill Thanos and his army.

- With Rogers old and retired, Barton also retired (and possible a wanted man), Romanoff dead, Thor figuring himself out, Banner no longer looking for a fight, and Stark completely out of the picture, it stands to reason that the big question on everyone's mind is: "Who will be our next heroes?"

- Some people say it'll be Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange and Black Panther being the pillars of the MCU moving forward. While that may be true, Danvers has shown that her duties are off-world, Strange is too concerned with the fabric of reality, and T'Challa may be too caught up in the politics regarding his nation. These three can't just sit in a tower and fight the bad guys. They're too busy.

- This is where the X-Men and mutants come in. If they've been kept a secret for this long, Xavier (naturally being their leader) may decide having seen how the world has responded to the Avengers in spite of their controversy, may now feel it is the right time to step into the spotlight. Suddenly the status quo is shaken up again, this time going beyond borders but on a human wide scale. Mutants--a race of people claiming to be the next step in human evolution--have arrived on the scene. They have their own island, their own language, their own culture, technology, scholars, scientists and ideologies. They are vying for peace trade negotiations with the UN, and hopefully integration into human society will come next. They are also presenting forward their best trained line of soldiers to defend the Earth from all evil, called the X-Men. All of this is in hope that the UN will recognise them as a nation, as a people and can foster peace between the two races.

- Perhaps before all of this happens, the Fantastic Four have been revealed to the public. They're greeted like astronauts returning from the moon. They're almost instant celebrities for a world desperately looking for their next Avengers, and with these guys not only being renowned scientists and explores before but presented as a family unit, they capture the hearts and minds of the world all over. Sure there's Ben Grimm, but kids think he's funny and cool, and they loved the Hulk anyway. They're good ole fashioned, red blooded Americans.

- Contrast that with the mutants and you get a different picture. They have their own culture already. They can make you see things! Pop claws out of their arms! Strike you down with lighting if they get upset and lobotomise you with a thought! A great number of them have alien, almost animalistic appearances! Their practices come across as cultish! One of your kids could be a mutant, and the big scary mutants will have to take them away to the big scary mutant island with the other big scary mutants and teach them their deviant mutant ways! The horror of it all! Suddenly mutants appear as a threat to humanity and it's culture despite good intentions and aspiring towards images humanity recognised as heroic.

[Huntsman Spider]

Is this really such a bad thing?

I mean, wouldn't it be a great way to add weight on the negative reaction to the sudden appearance and idea of mutants? Here's my line of thinking:

- As much as I despise the five year gap between Infinity War and Endgame (because it only benefitted Stark in having a daughter old enough), Marvel has a great opportunity to now use it a lot more wisely.

- A lot of weird **** is coming to the MCU within the next five to ten years. A lot of stuff to shake up the status quo of the universe:

- an uncolonised, formerly isolationist African nation is now the leading world superpower,

- the idea of a multiverse and alternative realities through time travel are now legitimate,

- a race of cosmic powered beings have been on Earth this whole time,

- vampires suddenly exist,

- a family of four have returned from whence they came with superpowers,

- and now a new race of people on Earth have been revealed,

- All of this happening after the entire universe was snapped out and then back into existence. The MCU is suddenly now a stranger place than ever before, growing from a simple alien invasion to a cosmic wide war.

- The heroes of the time before were undoubtedly the Avengers, and in spite of their controversies they have become legitimate world heroes, especially thanks to Stark's ultimate sacrifice to kill Thanos and his army.

- With Rogers old and retired, Barton also retired (and possible a wanted man), Romanoff dead, Thor figuring himself out, Banner no longer looking for a fight, and Stark completely out of the picture, it stands to reason that the big question on everyone's mind is: "Who will be our next heroes?"

- Some people say it'll be Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange and Black Panther being the pillars of the MCU moving forward. While that may be true, Danvers has shown that her duties are off-world, Strange is too concerned with the fabric of reality, and T'Challa may be too caught up in the politics regarding his nation. These three can't just sit in a tower and fight the bad guys. They're too busy.

- This is where the X-Men and mutants come in. If they've been kept a secret for this long, Xavier (naturally being their leader) may decide having seen how the world has responded to the Avengers in spite of their controversy, may now feel it is the right time to step into the spotlight. Suddenly the status quo is shaken up again, this time going beyond borders but on a human wide scale. Mutants--a race of people claiming to be the next step in human evolution--have arrived on the scene. They have their own island, their own language, their own culture, technology, scholars, scientists and ideologies. They are vying for peace trade negotiations with the UN, and hopefully integration into human society will come next. They are also presenting forward their best trained line of soldiers to defend the Earth from all evil, called the X-Men. All of this is in hope that the UN will recognise them as a nation, as a people and can foster peace between the two races.

- Perhaps before all of this happens, the Fantastic Four have been revealed to the public. They're greeted like astronauts returning from the moon. They're almost instant celebrities for a world desperately looking for their next Avengers, and with these guys not only being renowned scientists and explores before but presented as a family unit, they capture the hearts and minds of the world all over. Sure there's Ben Grimm, but kids think he's funny and cool, and they loved the Hulk anyway. They're good ole fashioned, red blooded Americans.

- Contrast that with the mutants and you get a different picture. They have their own culture already. They can make you see things! Pop claws out of their arms! Strike you down with lighting if they get upset and lobotomise you with a thought! A great number of them have alien, almost animalistic appearances! Their practices come across as cultish! One of your kids could be a mutant, and the big scary mutants will have to take them away to the big scary mutant island with the other big scary mutants and teach them their deviant mutant ways! The horror of it all! Suddenly mutants appear as a threat to humanity and it's culture despite good intentions and aspiring towards images humanity recognised as heroic.

I like that premise, and I could see human governments wanting to (re)create their own Avengers as a counterweight to the "threat" of the X-Men and mutantkind as a whole and making the Thunderbolts from that. General-turned-Secretary Thaddeus Ross would probably be spearheading the charge, seeing his views being validated in his own mind by the very existence of mutants in general and the X-Men in particular.

[Hybrid]

Is this really such a bad thing?

I mean, wouldn't it be a great way to add weight on the negative reaction to the sudden appearance and idea of mutants? Here's my line of thinking:

- As much as I despise the five year gap between Infinity War and Endgame (because it only benefitted Stark in having a daughter old enough), Marvel has a great opportunity to now use it a lot more wisely.

- A lot of weird **** is coming to the MCU within the next five to ten years. A lot of stuff to shake up the status quo of the universe:

- an uncolonised, formerly isolationist African nation is now the leading world superpower,

- the idea of a multiverse and alternative realities through time travel are now legitimate,

- a race of cosmic powered beings have been on Earth this whole time,

- vampires suddenly exist,

- a family of four have returned from whence they came with superpowers,

- and now a new race of people on Earth have been revealed,

- All of this happening after the entire universe was snapped out and then back into existence. The MCU is suddenly now a stranger place than ever before, growing from a simple alien invasion to a cosmic wide war.

- The heroes of the time before were undoubtedly the Avengers, and in spite of their controversies they have become legitimate world heroes, especially thanks to Stark's ultimate sacrifice to kill Thanos and his army.

- With Rogers old and retired, Barton also retired (and possible a wanted man), Romanoff dead, Thor figuring himself out, Banner no longer looking for a fight, and Stark completely out of the picture, it stands to reason that the big question on everyone's mind is: "Who will be our next heroes?"

- Some people say it'll be Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange and Black Panther being the pillars of the MCU moving forward. While that may be true, Danvers has shown that her duties are off-world, Strange is too concerned with the fabric of reality, and T'Challa may be too caught up in the politics regarding his nation. These three can't just sit in a tower and fight the bad guys. They're too busy.

- This is where the X-Men and mutants come in. If they've been kept a secret for this long, Xavier (naturally being their leader) may decide having seen how the world has responded to the Avengers in spite of their controversy, may now feel it is the right time to step into the spotlight. Suddenly the status quo is shaken up again, this time going beyond borders but on a human wide scale. Mutants--a race of people claiming to be the next step in human evolution--have arrived on the scene. They have their own island, their own language, their own culture, technology, scholars, scientists and ideologies. They are vying for peace trade negotiations with the UN, and hopefully integration into human society will come next. They are also presenting forward their best trained line of soldiers to defend the Earth from all evil, called the X-Men. All of this is in hope that the UN will recognise them as a nation, as a people and can foster peace between the two races.

- Perhaps before all of this happens, the Fantastic Four have been revealed to the public. They're greeted like astronauts returning from the moon. They're almost instant celebrities for a world desperately looking for their next Avengers, and with these guys not only being renowned scientists and explores before but presented as a family unit, they capture the hearts and minds of the world all over. Sure there's Ben Grimm, but kids think he's funny and cool, and they loved the Hulk anyway. They're good ole fashioned, red blooded Americans.

- Contrast that with the mutants and you get a different picture. They have their own culture already. They can make you see things! Pop claws out of their arms! Strike you down with lighting if they get upset and lobotomise you with a thought! A great number of them have alien, almost animalistic appearances! Their practices come across as cultish! One of your kids could be a mutant, and the big scary mutants will have to take them away to the big scary mutant island with the other big scary mutants and teach them their deviant mutant ways! The horror of it all! Suddenly mutants appear as a threat to humanity and it's culture despite good intentions and aspiring towards images humanity recognised as heroic.

That's all good, but what does it have to do with me saying that the Power Pack would become Avengers fanboys?

[Electricmastro]

At any rate, I treat the X-Men as closely connected to the Marvel Universe as I do with Avengers, and I wouldn't have it any other way!

[Agent Z]

This thread and a few others by the OP all amount to the same thing - complaining that the Marvel universe doesn't revolve around the X-Men anymore while hypocritically decrying the Avengers getting pushed in light of their new found popularity.

I'd settle for a big event that had the X-Men in which they weren't vilified for not having an in-house multi-billion-dollar movie franchise.

EDIT: To add to the overall discussion on the board, I've never felt that the X-Men should be separate from the Marvel Universe, but they can easily thrive if forced to do so.

The Marvel Universe can clearly exist without the X-Men (see the MCU), but it doesn't feel right. Like it's a little too clean without that nasty, bigoted underbelly that anti-mutant hysteria brings.

I'm glad the initial poster brought up the fact that having the Avengers as the top dogs of the MU (popularity-wise) is really a modern phenomenon. The FF were the MU's first superstars: that essentially transferred to the X-Men in the '80s, which was later transferred to the Avengers in the mod-2000's with the premier of New Avengers. Spider-Man's been omnipresent throughout his history.

Watch the Luke Cage, Daredevil and Jessica Jones shows. Those are far darker (and have more relevant themes) than most anything the X-Men have done.
Betw

[Agent Z]

Not sure how you can think that, as we all know there wouldn't be a Marvel without the X-Men #justsayin #justSUPERsaiyan

There wouldn't be a Marvel without the Fantastic Four.

[Hybrid]

This thread and a few others by the OP all amount to the same thing - complaining that the Marvel universe doesn't revolve around the X-Men anymore while hypocritically decrying the Avengers getting pushed in light of their new found popularity.



Watch the Luke Cage, Daredevil and Jessica Jones shows. Those are far darker (and have more relevant themes) than most anything the X-Men have done.
Betw

No, I'm pointing out that it's very incorrect and poorly premised to say the X-Men exist outside the core of Marvel, and the idea was born out of the movies.