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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    IMO the X-Men ate the entire company in the 90s, and it ultimately bankrupted Marvel both creatively and financially. The X-Men may have been my first and best love but I thought the whole Onslaught/Heroes Reborn stunt was a fundamental betrayal of the entire line - because initially, at least, it didn't seem like a planned temporary stunt. It just felt like another excuse to consolidate the entire company into suffocating X-mania. It was wrong.
    I .
    Not sure how you can think that, as we all know there wouldn't be a Marvel without the X-Men #justsayin #justSUPERsaiyan
    GrindrStone(D)

  2. #17
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Not sure how you can think that, as we all know there wouldn't be a Marvel without the X-Men
    I'm aware of that. Doesn't mean it wasn't creatively bankrupt. I also think they made a lot of poor business decisions re: the line, and that certainly didn't stop with the X-Men.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Not just that, but it didnít feel quite right to see Marvel not have access to much of their best villains and core worldbuilding the X-Men (and Fantastic Four) brings. Not just mutants themselves, but elements like the Shiíar, Savage Land, Otherworld, Mojoworld, Cyttorak, Phoenix Force, Brood, Limbo, and other stuff I know Iím missing. The X-Men gives them all that plus the numerous characters, and groups besides the X-Men such as the Brotherhood, Hellfire Club, New Mutants, X-Factor, Alpha Flight, Excalibur, X-Force, Weapon X, Marauders... itís insane. I always enjoyed the MCU, but felt the missing elements as time went on.

    I also hope MCU X-Men will bring more exposure to the mythos. A lot of people think Wolverine is the star, can only name Magneto, and believe itís entirely mutant racism. It got tiresome after a while. The X-Men can be as fun as the rest of Marvel, but Fox focused solely on mutant racism because they didnít know anything else. They do sci-fi, fantasy, horror, drama and general superhero. Thatís what I want to see on the big screen, and prove once and for all that the X-Men belong home.
    Yeah they can seriously go all out on the space stuff now, they have pretty much everything. To me it's not big deal not to have Spider-Man, they have the Avengers, FF, X-Men (all books), Guardians, Champions, Young Avengers, etc... They can do whatever they want now, they can do a whole epic thing just from the Guardians of the Galaxy, Starjammers, Nova Corp, Captain Marvel, Kree, Skrull, Shi'ar. They can do War of Kings now, they have all the players.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I'm aware of that. Doesn't mean it wasn't creatively bankrupt. I also think they made a lot of poor business decisions re: the line, and that certainly didn't stop with the X-Men.
    Generation X itself is proof that's not True...+90s saw the New Mutants become X-Force, Muir Island Saga, The unequalled AoA, etc. Must've missed the innovative comics coming from Marvel's other top franchise??
    GrindrStone(D)

  5. #20
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    The ‘90s had plenty of good comics, but there were so many more bad ones it nearly tanked the industry. My favorite example being Onslaught which was a bad story that made no sense, was made for business first, and led to Heroes Reborn, but also the awesome Thunderbolts. That series gave us some very good stories and revitalized everyone involved (like Screaming Mimi going from forgettable thug to awesome heroine Songbird, and Beetle a joke to honest crimefighter MACH). Doesn’t change the fact that Onslaught’s story and overall effect was bad, it just had a silver lining. Busiek is also a lot more talented than Lobdell, so he may have been making the best of a bad situation.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    The Avengers were always treated in-universe as the A-list top-tier superteam. But it was the actual company IRL that marginalized them in the late '80s and through the '90s, and made the X-Men into McDonald's in the '90s.

    The Avengers being revitalized as the premiere superteam of the Marvel Universe was what needed to happen and was only right. It also gave the X-Men room to be differentiated and nuanced again as opposed to a toy/merch moneysink of bland writing and characters. They went into the wilderness for a long time, but that chance to grow and still remain relevant is back now.
    The Avengers only made such a big comeback due to Disney now having the XMen movie rights when they bought Marvel. They were forced to develop Avengers and even Z list teams like Guardians of the Galaxy and the Eternals. But this needed to happen.

    The XMen has become top sellers in the 90s, but TAS blew things out of the water for them.

    Now itís good to see the XMen reimagined for MCU.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    The Avengers only made such a big comeback due to Disney now having the XMen movie rights when they bought Marvel. They were forced to develop Avengers and even Z list teams like Guardians of the Galaxy and the Eternals. But this needed to happen.

    The XMen has become top sellers in the 90s, but TAS blew things out of the water for them.

    Now itís good to see the XMen reimagined for MCU.
    The Avengers comeback actually happened almost a decade before Disney got them around the time Bendis got on the books. That's when the Avengers began to be positioned as the A-team in the Marvel Universe. I think Civil War (the comic, not the movie) was the real gamechanger. That event pretty much established Iron Man and Captain America as THE most important characters in the universe.

    The MCU turning the Avengers into household names was done separately of this and def helped later on but their push was actually well before the MCU was rolling
    DC, hurry up and make your own version of Marvel Unlimited!

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Also of note: I mentioned the cult classic Power Pack in the OP. They never were a top seller but they were and still are beloved, and took part in crossovers like anyone else. They were pretty chummy with a lot of Marvel, including the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Cloak and Dagger, as well as the X-Men. They took part in several X-Overs, like the aforementioned Mutant Massacre, and hung out with them a lot. However, I can’t recall if they ever were part of an Avengers-centric story or if they hung out with them at all in the original run.

    It’s funny because if they were introduced today they’d be going on about how they want to be Avengers. It’s part of the reason I’ve been worried about them coming to the MCU, because I fear they’ll be Avengers fanboys like Spider-Man. With X-Men and Fantastic Four in Phase 5 (beginning in 2022), and word is Power Pack is being made as a Disney+ series, I really hope the timing is right.
    Last edited by Hybrid; 09-10-2019 at 04:49 PM.

  9. #24
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    The Avengers comeback actually happened almost a decade before Disney got them around the time Bendis got on the books. That's when the Avengers began to be positioned as the A-team in the Marvel Universe. I think Civil War (the comic, not the movie) was the real gamechanger. That event pretty much established Iron Man and Captain America as THE most important characters in the universe.

    The MCU turning the Avengers into household names was done separately of this and def helped later on but their push was actually well before the MCU was rolling
    Good point, though would that have happened if they weren't angling toward featuring those characters in big-budget movies? The first Iron Man did come out a year after Civil War's conclusion, after all. As for the X-Men's part in it, the X-Men stayed out of it largely because in real life, the issue the Avengers were fighting over was something the X-Men had been dealing with for years/decades and Marvel didn't want to call attention to that. In-universe, it was the perfect justification that the other superheroes didn't care all that much about registration when it was just mutants being threatened with it, but when government forces were targeting anybody and everybody with powers, they went crawling to the X-Men for help.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #25
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    Why should the Avengera have been treated like the premiere team in the 90s if the X-Men were selling more?

  11. #26
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Generation X itself is proof that's not True...
    One zany spinoff book that didn't maintain quality.

    +90s saw the New Mutants become X-Force, Muir Island Saga, The unequalled AoA, etc.
    AoA is great fun and so are those arcs but with the exception of maybe Gen Next in AoA none of the above are exactly high art.

    Must've missed the innovative comics coming from Marvel's other top franchise??
    I didn't say there were many. I did say Marvel putting all their chips on X-Men and overexposing the franchise was bad for the company and bad for the X-Men. And it was.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    The Avengers comeback actually happened almost a decade before Disney got them around the time Bendis got on the books.
    Which was before Civil War, yes. It was a huge push and it worked. It was also IMO righting a wrong: The Avengers were supposed to be the premiere superteam of this universe. This made them that again. Busiek's run also did this but with much less fanfare and push in a very difficult time for the company. Point is, if you make the X-Men try to fill that role it's bad for them and bad for the overall line IMO. Hard to be 'hated and feared' or 'the different superheroes' if you're the banner squad.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    The ‘90s had plenty of good comics, but there were so many more bad ones it nearly tanked the industry. My favorite example being Onslaught which was a bad story that made no sense, was made for business first, and led to Heroes Reborn, but also the awesome Thunderbolts. That series gave us some very good stories and revitalized everyone involved (like Screaming Mimi going from forgettable thug to awesome heroine Songbird, and Beetle a joke to honest crimefighter MACH). Doesn’t change the fact that Onslaught’s story and overall effect was bad, it just had a silver lining. Busiek is also a lot more talented than Lobdell, so he may have been making the best of a bad situation.
    On this we completely agree.

  14. #29
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    The mid-90's started it, I'd say since AOA and Onslaught there has been a bit of a distance, but Morrison solidified it. The guy left a lasting scar on the X-Men they haven't been able to move beyond.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armageddon View Post
    Why should the Avengera have been treated like the premiere team in the 90s if the X-Men were selling more?
    Rosters.

    X-Men were generally mutants. Many of whom were LIMITED in development in those books. There was no book filled with guys with solo books that at times can hold a team book hostage (as McDuffie's Justice League run will show you).

    Avengers-like we saw with the 2016 team-EVERYONE had a solo book. Or what we saw with Galactic Storm-how many titles did that eat up?
    Also who got showcased in those books. Black Panther is not going to be on X-Men.

    Also what is MISSING now that we had in the 80s?

    Books like Marvel 2 in One, Marvel Comics Present and other books that allowed you to showcase EVERYBODY.
    I didn't need a Storm book when I could use Marvel 2 in One or Strange Tales to do a Storm & Ben Grimm story.

    So you were about to integrate everyone.

    Generation X itself is proof that's not True...+90s saw the New Mutants become X-Force, Muir Island Saga, The unequalled AoA, etc. Must've missed the innovative comics coming from Marvel's other top franchise??
    There was no need because New Warriors was around. However once that passed-Marvel stop developing teens while X-Men did. Then came Young Avengers & Academy.

    However UNLIKE X-Men-those teens didn't make the big time roster. At least until a rocket hit that bus in New X-Men academy.

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