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  1. #31
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    There is quite a bit of a deep discussion to be had here. I'm not sure if black people were not allowed to have black heroes. Oh, I'm sure they weren't from white companies, as there is testimony to support that. However, I think black people could have had more prominent black superheroes if more black people had cared about that, like they cared about having black music, for example. I'm not saying it would have been easy as pie for them, but it may have been if there was enough of a demand and creative spark among black people for such things. They would have created their own heroes and marketed them toward people in their communities, like they very successfully did with music.

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Context is everything. When a culture had been systematically decimated for over a hundred years, treated less than human and simply not allowed to have icons or heroes that looked like themselves, then marginalized and demonized if not shut out of mainstream culture, then maybe your example does not truly correlate to what lemonpeace is talking about.
    The example was about the audience's inclination to relate to characters who physically resemble them. The context or marginalized history of the main character's group is with all due respect of no relevance to the matter of how certain type of people would always relate more to characters that bear visual resemblance to their own group. That would always be the case regardless of their prior history. And with the cover and Jemisin's interviews I've read about the book, she makes it clear who the target audience of the book is, which is why I mentioned how the cover is depicting the protagonist having an action figure of a black character, a poster of another black character and apparently reading fan fiction about black characters as well. Jo clearly seems to relate to characters who look like her, which could also be seen as symbolism for how the book's target audience is meant to relate to Jo as well.
    Last edited by Johnny; 09-28-2019 at 10:55 AM.

  3. #33
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    There is quite a bit of a deep discussion to be had here. I'm not sure if black people were not allowed to have black heroes. Oh, I'm sure they weren't from white companies, as there is testimony to support that. However, I think black people could have had more prominent black superheroes if more black people had cared about that, like they cared about having black music, for example. I'm not saying it would have been easy as pie for them, but it may have been if there was enough of a demand and creative spark among black people for such things. They would have created their own heroes and marketed them toward people in their communities, like they very successfully did with music.
    I'm not simply saying black people (or anyone of color) literally weren't allowed to have heroes. And yes, "they" could have "their" own heroes, but that's what marginalization means - that it's "their" heroes - "their" culture, as though they're not a part of American culture. And that the mainstream white culture historically did not put forth PoC as being universally heroic, even though this country is made up of many types of people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    The example was about the audience's inclination to relate to characters who physically resemble them. The context or marginalized history of the main character's group is with all due respect of no relevance to the matter of how certain type of people would always relate more to characters that bear visual resemblance to their own group. That would always be the case regardless of their prior history. And with the cover and Jemisin's interviews I've read about the book, she makes it clear who the target audience of the book is, which is why I mentioned how the cover is depicting the protagonist having an action figure of a black character, a poster of another black character and apparently reading fan fiction about black characters as well. Jo clearly seems to relate to characters who look like her, which could also be seen as symbolism for how the book's target audience is meant to relate to Jo as well.
    One difference is that Jo is a character and Jo has a specific, individual point of view. The story, on the other hand, when done well, is what's supposed to be relatable to many different audiences. So comparing the two isn't the same thing. It is also a case of representation and yes, I know that's become a hot-button topic, but the underlying importance exists whether or not some people are quick to dismiss it. I think you miss the point when you say Jemisin is "making clear who the target audience is" because she's talking about something that's happening in America - that affects americans - to automatically think that she's "targetting" one segment is the problem - to say that stories being told from that POV isn't "for them" is a problem. It's for everyone to read and absorb, the way a story about a white protagonist doesn't mean it's really only for white people. Why are stories with white protagonists allowed to be seen as having universal themes, but stories that star a PoC are seen as "not for them?" Jemisin spoke a lot about the issues of justice and about the GLC, etc. I did not get the sense this is only for one audience.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    One difference is that Jo is a character and Jo has a specific, individual point of view. The story, on the other hand, when done well, is what's supposed to be relatable to many different audiences. So comparing the two isn't the same thing. It is also a case of representation and yes, I know that's become a hot-button topic, but the underlying importance exists whether or not some people are quick to dismiss it. I think you miss the point when you say Jemisin is "making clear who the target audience is" because she's talking about something that's happening in America - that affects americans - to automatically think that she's "targetting" one segment is the problem - to say that stories being told from that POV isn't "for them" is a problem. It's for everyone to read and absorb, the way a story about a white protagonist doesn't mean it's really only for white people. Why are stories with white protagonists allowed to be seen as having universal themes, but stories that star a PoC are seen as "not for them?" Jemisin spoke a lot about the issues of justice and about the GLC, etc. I did not get the sense this is only for one audience.
    I never suggested the book having its target audience makes it unaccessible to other people, I merely pointed out the obvious, which is the fact that every entertainment product, be it a comic, TV show or movie, has its target audience. Noone claims it's meant to be "only for them", "they" are simply the group that its meant to primarily appeal to. Spider-Man was originally created to relate to young people who lacked confidence and struggled in their social environment, today that character appeals to literally everyone regardless of the original target audience. The fact that his costume also covered his entire body without showing his skin color was no coincidence as well. If this book becomes a hit, it would be because it would manage to appeal to everyone, much like any other product featuring a diverse protagonist that became successful worldwide. I'm not arguing against any of that, all I did was point out that the book seems to be primarily meant to appeal to a specific audience, not that it can't or shouldn't appeal to anyone else, American or otherwise.
    Last edited by Johnny; 09-28-2019 at 12:27 PM.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I never suggested the book having its target audience makes it unaccessible to other people, I merely pointed out the obvious, which is the fact that every entertainment product, be it a comic, TV show or movie, has its target audience. Noone claims it's meant to be "only for them", "they" are simply the group that its meant to primarily appeal to. Spider-Man was originally created to relate to young people who lacked confidence and struggled in their social environment, today that character appeals to literally everyone regardless of the original target audience. The fact that his costume also covered his entire body without showing his skin color was no coincidence as well. If this book becomes a hit, it would be because it would manage to appeal to everyone, much like any other product featuring a diverse protagonist that became successful worldwide. I'm not arguing against any of that, all I did was point out that the book seems to be primarily meant to appeal to a specific audience, not that it can't or shouldn't appeal to anyone else, American or otherwise.
    While I might have included larger topics, I was mostly interested in interrogating what was your inference vs. what the writer was conveying. You certainly don't answer to me, but I appreciate the discussion. It's not just about you, but we've seen this kind of discussion a lot lately so I was speaking to those larger themes as well.

  6. #36
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    Well, from my impression, from what I've seen, read, and know, someone behind the scenes seems to be trying to go for a specific audience above others. You have two black creators (probably not brought together by coincidence), a black woman protagonist, a cover with her associated with other black stuff, and the writer is talking about black lives matter and has to point out a caveat of not hating the police. I have seen people get excited specifically about it having two black creators and starring a black woman, so those moves were already meant to get the attention of a specific audience, and I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging that.

    I've never read an issue of this, but despite this taking place in space, the marketing is leading me to believe this may be a "Black book" perhaps even with a Woke slant. There is nothing wrong with that, but just like it will interest some, it will turn off others. Note, it is possible to have black lead characters and not have it a "black product." It depends on the subject matter and how the creators approach things. A good example is Telltale's Walking Dead game, which stars a black man and a black little girl. The game isn't about being black or woke. It's just about surviving:



    You can say that some people may be jumping the gun with assessments like that, but what marketing is all about is giving an audience an idea of what they can expect from a product or service and trying to interest them in that. The marketing for this product is leading me to believe certain things about that, and that's not a fault of mine.

  7. #37
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    I'm really looking forward to this title and the context Jo will be operating in, based on the interviews. It brings up some really good, relatable questions and issues, which is a hallmark of sci-fi and fantasy stories.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Johnny; 09-30-2019 at 02:37 AM.

  9. #39

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    I'm digging the interviews and I'm interested in reading it.

  10. #40
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    I was gonna say something in response to 2 posts from 2 different members but I don't have the energy to engage with people I think are trolls.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    Another Interview

    This time from Jamal Campbell.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    I was gonna say something in response to 2 posts from 2 different members but I don't have the energy to engage with people I think are trolls.
    Keep in mind that calling 2 members trolls here is a big accusation. And that's pretty harsh. Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean they're considered trolls.

    After reading this thread, I don't think there was anything remotely wrong on what anyone here was saying.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    Keep in mind that calling 2 members trolls here is a big accusation. And that's pretty harsh. Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean they're considered trolls.

    After reading this thread, I don't think there was anything remotely wrong on what anyone here was saying.
    There wasn't. The closest thing to trolling was, ironically, that comment you're replying to.

    If someone is that triggered by regular discussion, what I would recommend they do is form their own Facebook group, make it private, and only let in people they want to. However, they will likely be limiting their activity quite a bit with something like that. Besides, the people that they would let in would eventually probably say or do something that the group creator doesn't like anyway, especially if they're THAT sensitive. Then they'd be right back at square one.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 10-03-2019 at 09:26 AM.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Damn I thought this was out already
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nonetheless):
    DC: Currently figuring that out
    Marvel: Read above
    Image: Killadelphia, Nightmare Blog
    Other: The Antagonist, Something is Killing the Children, Avatar: TLAB
    Manga: My Hero Academia, MHA: Vigilanties, Soul Eater: the Perfect Edition, Berserk, Hunter X Hunter, Witch Hat Atelier, Kaiju No. 8

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    Damn I thought this was out already
    Same, I was excited!

    Not looking forward to people being mad over a book written author who stresses she isn't even ACAB as being "too woke" or whatever. That's definitely gonna suck.

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