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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Default Have the FoX-Men movies negatively affected the X-Men as a brand?

    There may be good movies in the series, and sure the early movies were essential to getting superheroes mainstream, but now I'm starting to wonder if Fox having the rights for so long have overall done more harm than good.

    I think there are several ways this shows:

    1. It's given people the impression that the X-Men are nothing more than a disposable offshoot of Marvel, rather than a true part of it. This despite the fact that the X-Men were far more popular than the Avengers (seen as a dumping ground for lesser heroes), with more crossovers, minis, acclaimed and bestselling stories, and spin-offs than the Avengers were getting at the same time. Because of how the Avengers are perceived now, many act like they've always been the core of Marvel, and that the X-Men exist outside of it, and that isn't true either. Before the MCU, I don't think anyone suggested the X-Men were somehow "less Marvel" than the other franchises.
    2. Many are only exposed to Wolverine, as everyone else got shafted. They may not know of the many, MANY awesome female characters that make up the series. I mean, Mystique was the only one who got promoted a bunch, and only Jennifer Lawrence (who was made a heroic paragon because it was her). Not just the female characters, either, but just a bunch of characters were reduced to little if not featured at all. I mean, take Cyclops for example.
    3. It's often thought that X-Men is about mutant racism and nothing else. While it's true that's a running theme, it's also true that the X-Men comics were just as fun as the rest of Marvel, featuring adventure, science fiction, fantasy, horror, drama, and general superheroics. I think Fox really only knew the racism aspect, and focused solely on that, and injecting the misery by focusing solely on mutant racism for twenty years kinda makes the brand go stale.
    4. Many aren't aware that the X-Men have a diverse and awesome rogues gallery that can rival Spider-Man. Many really only know Magneto, because that's who kept being used in the movies, and any time the main villain wasn't Magneto, they were either an anti-mutant racist (going with the point above), have a big relationship with Magneto, or are mostly forgettable. I mean, in the comics we have mutant supremacists, mutant criminal rings, elite societies, anti-mutant cells, aliens of multiple varieties, mad scientists, robots, magical beings, demonic creatures, interdimensional entities, and time-travelers, among miscellaneous rogues like the Juggernaut.
    5. Because of Marvel not having the X-Men movie rights for the first ten years, and when the MCU really made it big, Marvel (thanks to certain individuals like Ike Perlmutter) did everything they could to distance X-Men from the brand. This includes removing them from promotion, not allowing them in video games or animated series, keeping the X-Men on the outside in the comics, and making their roles in big crossover events minimal at best. All of this, combined with the X-Men not being in the MCU at the time when the franchise was really exploding to monumental heights, even led people to not know the X-Men actually share the same universe as the Avengers in the comics.

    I think the reason we were all celebrating when Disney bought Fox, and when Feige teased X-Men for Phase 5 at SDCC, was not just the fact the we'll be seeing X-Men in the MCU. It's also that they'll be done better, they'll no longer be shafted in all media and stories, we'll get to see other parts of the mythos with a better continuity on the big screen, and they'll be able to interact with the others for a truly massive shared universe.

    It's telling when disinterest completely overshadowed Dark Phoenix, as the general audience was substantially more interested in the MCU reboot that comes after the movie, rather than the movie itself. I think we all saw it as less of a "send-off", and more of something that stood in the way. It doesn't help the movie turned out terrible. However, even if it were good, it'd still be pointless to see a movie where all plot lines are going to be thrown out the window in a few years.

    So is FoX-Men to blame for all of this? It sure feels like it.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Well I notice films can make or break character.

    Mystique being a naked Rebecca Romijin and then Jennifer Lawrence inflated her quire a bit in the comics to the point she shows up everywhere & became a complete villain sue who never gets any comeuppance for her crimes -except when it's Wolverine or Magneto, who were even bigger than her in the films.

    With Domino having a part in DPII she now has her own series, and Gale Simone has said she'll be writing more, but things got paused for Age of X and Hickman.

    Sabretooth was a dumb Brotherhood Clod in the films, and the comic writers sure as Hell took that to heart. After Frank Tieri's Weapon X was cancelled, Austen got ahold of him & started putting him in Brotherhood where he officially became a D-list baddie of the week like the film & cartoons depicted him. Prior to tv, Creed had no connection to Brotherhood. Then Claremont followed with the Brotherhood nonsense in the Nuir Island Moira story. Now being a Brotherhood jobber with the brain of an insect is all his character is about. Hell he's been demoted from a solo villain to a Henchman, and usually a personal one of Mystique. Liev Schreiber was also a bad casting choice that didn't save Creed any. otherwise, he'd be getting better treatment. FOX and Austen highhandedly ruined this character and 98% of writers have followed suit.

    Storm was mostly wallpaper in the films, and played by improperly cast actresses, and hasn't helped her X-Brand either. She's treated better in BP it seems.

    However, some exceptions. The films didn't do Emma much justice, but she flew right to the top when Morrison started pushing her heavily. And Cyclops does well enough for himself, despite iffy FOX film showings.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 09-10-2019 at 09:47 PM.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    As someone critical of Fox. No. They didn't negative affect X-men brand beyond the bad movies they made, The good movies that they made counteracted the bad. If the MCU release a good X-men movie the brand is fine. The comic side has done more to destroy the brand than Fox. Years of flooding the market with mediocre X-stuff is what has hurt the X-men the most.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-10-2019 at 09:58 PM.

  4. #4

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    I don't think Fox and their movies harmed the X-Men as a brand, no. The damage was all deliberately inflicted by the higher ups on the Marvel side in an attempt to make the brand less valuable to Fox.
    Last edited by Anduinel; 09-10-2019 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Jet lag is my mortal enemy.

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  5. #5
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    What would you say about the points I made above? It's one of the saddest facts of life that comic books remain comparatively niche compared to movies, no matter how good the comic or how bad the movie, thanks to people being unwilling to read. That of course affects perception. It's because of the Raimi Trilogy that so many people thought Spider-Man can organically shoot webs for the longest time, or the Fox FF movies for why people act like the FF are as lame as it gets.

  6. #6
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Fox raised awareness of the brand but over the years has probably just confused audiences about what the brand actually is, because Fox themselves didn't know. So define "damage."
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  7. #7
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    I get the feeling that the X-Men are going to be HUGE when they come to the MCU. It won’t matter that there are all these movies audiences thought were just okay, or bad, or didn’t see at all. It will have all the appeal of an MCU movie, AND, I think, a similar appeal as the Disney live action remakes that are so huge. Because I think there are a lot of 30somethings now who were kids during the X-Men’s 90’s heyday, and plenty of other generations (though not with quite the same wide saturation) who have some version to be nostalgic for.

    And when you think about it, the movies haven’t represented anyone’s platonic ideal of the X-Men for a long time. I don’t think this series has made people think “the X-Men are boring”; it’s just that they were so obviously presenting a version that was hard to get excited for. It’s SUCH a weird franchise in that they basically started with carte blanche, and then instead of reacting to changing culture or capturing more of what has made the characters exciting in other mediums, pretty much every movie after the second or third one was some kind of weird reaction to the movie before it, and nothing else. So they kept writing themselves into a smaller and smaller aesthetic corner.. “now we’re set in the past” “now we don’t have regular versions of characters people like” “now we’re more grounded and there are less costumes” “you liked when all the movies were about Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, and hardly anyone else... now they’re just about Xavier and Magneto!” “...and Mystique!”

    And meanwhile Marvel is releasing Avengers movies and they’re as Avengery as they could possibly be. There’s a lot of skill and craft to Marvel’s best movies but a lot of it is also just... doing the obvious thing because it’s obvious. The “it isn’t rocket science” approach.

    Like, just imagine if the X-Men show up in the MCU with a lineup and costumes that evoke the animated series / Jim Lee era. Like what an obvious message that would instantly send to so many people. And it’s crazy that Fox could have done that at any point, but for some reason they were so focused on keeping whatever audience that showed up for the last one that I guess they thought they could never do a hard reboot, and maybe they thought “we can’t do the obvious thing because now Marvel is doing that! I guess we’ll have to find our niche over here in the corner...”

    But it’s not just limited to movies. Look at how many new and lapsed comic readers are (anecdotally) flocking to HOX/POX. “Oh, it’s X-Men and it’s going to be GOOD? I’m there!” Because good X-Men is cooler than good most other things!

  8. #8
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Fox raised awareness of the brand but over the years has probably just confused audiences about what the brand actually is, because Fox themselves didn't know. So define "damage."
    Raising awareness can be good, but it depends on the message. I think it's because of the FoX-Men versus MCU that people think the X-Men are an offshoot who live in a void, only deal with racism, only fight Magneto, and never have any fun stories of their own.

    It's sad when the people who make these movies hate comic books, the tropes associated with them, openly mocked them, and did little research on the matter. It's known that the people who make the movies have very little knowledge of the lore. Example, they put Psylocke in Apocalypse because they thought she looked cool, but didn't know she was Captain Britain's twin sister. Olivia Munn actually had to explain many parts of the X-Men lore to them as they were making the movie, which she admits was frustrating. I understand that, because it needs to be said: an actress knew more about X-Men than people making the X-Men movie.

    Honestly, I don't even know why some people still defend the idea of Fox continuing them as their own thing.

    Amazingly, Claremont said he enjoys all of them, even their butchered take on Dark Phoenix. If he enjoys the FoX-Men movies, I bet he'll love seeing them in the MCU.

  9. #9
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    If anything, Batman and Robin damaged the brand the most and that's a DC film. Because of Batman and Robin, the more comic book-y aspects were toned down and the rise of realism in film only made a comic accurate, colorful and dramatic X-Men film more unlikely.

    I would argue that poor management at Marvel during the 90s which culminated in bankruptcy and outsourcing less popular heroes like Avengers and FF to Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld did more damage because that was the first cleave in the Marvel-X-Men relationship. The bankruptcy led to Marvel selling rights to film studios in the first place which led to all of these.

    So yeah, blame the 90s.

    My biggest problem with FoX-Men is how we basically got an overly narrow focus at any given point in time. It feels like FoX-Men still had a 90s mentality when it came to cinematic universes and refused to embrace the more zanny aspects of X-Men.

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Another problem is the continuity, which is embarrassingly bad. I mean, I can't even describe it, and I won't even try. I don't care, not anymore, and clearly because they themselves didn't care.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Don't think the movies impacted the comics badly. If anything, they brought the franchise to a wider audience.
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  12. #12
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Don't think the movies impacted the comics badly. If anything, they brought the franchise to a wider audience.
    Again, that doesn't mean much. I can guarantee you more have seen Batman & Robin than The Dark Knight Returns. Yeah, that's the saddest thing I've had to say in a while. It's not just about a franchise getting more exposure, but how it's done.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    What would you say about the points I made above? It's one of the saddest facts of life that comic books remain comparatively niche compared to movies, no matter how good the comic or how bad the movie, thanks to people being unwilling to read. That of course affects perception. It's because of the Raimi Trilogy that so many people thought Spider-Man can organically shoot webs for the longest time, or the Fox FF movies for why people act like the FF are as lame as it gets.
    I don't find the X-Men movies particularly appealing myself; I only saw the first two in theaters (plus Deadpool because my sister knows an easy mark when she sees one). I can think of dozens of things I'd have had them do differently, but they managed to maintain a fanbase. I don't think the wider public particularly cared about the rights issues or the X-Men being an "offshoot". The bigger issue, to my mind, is that once Marvel became a Disney property, they choked off the possibility of any other adaptations of the X-Men. No AAA video games, no cartoon shows, no animated features, and virtually no merchandise. The movies are a muddle, but it's on Marvel that they were allowed to be the loudest voice in the room when it came to the X-Men over the last decade.

    But I expect it's all going to be a moot point once the first MCU X-Men movie comes out. I don't know if it'll be the 90's all over again, but given that Marvel's going to be releasing about a dozen X-Men ongoings and maxi-series in the next six months even now, with the movies still a good four or five years out, they're obviously back in favor.

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  14. #14
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Actually, I think the MCU X-Men movies are coming sooner than that even. Feige confirmed them and the Fantastic Four were coming in Phase 5 at the end of SDCC, which officially kicks off in 2022 with Black Panther 2.



    I kinda need MCU X-Men to come ASAP. With them back in Marvel's good graces, it's making me excited for what's to come. I'm ready for the new golden era of X-Men to begin!

  15. #15
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Although the movies did have a fanbase, I do wonder how much of it was left by the end. As I said in the OP...

    It's telling when disinterest completely overshadowed Dark Phoenix, as the general audience was substantially more interested in the MCU reboot that comes after the movie, rather than the movie itself. I think we all saw it as less of a "send-off", and more of something that stood in the way. It doesn't help the movie turned out terrible. However, even if it were good, it'd still be pointless to see a movie where all plot lines are going to be thrown out the window in a few years.
    It feels all too true. I honestly don't think anyone I saw was pumped for Dark Phoenix, and it just felt like something that had to pass. I think the impending MCU reboot did a lot to kill whatever potential Dark Phoenix had in terms of success, regardless of quality.

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