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  1. #406
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmshapyro View Post
    I'm hoping it's moving towards a unified theory of x-demonology that ties together Limbo demons and the Soulsword (echoing Surtur), Inferno, Maddye, Apocalypse, the Horsemen, Krakoa, Roma, Otherworld, the N'Garai, etc. Throw in the Native American Adversary and Demon Bear stuff while you're at it.
    looooove this thought. I wasn't sure that aspect of X-Men lore was on Hickman's radar, but with the demonic Krakoan history, and the gossip pages' reference to Maddy AND Inferno, it clearly is. Bring on the unified theory of x-demonology!!

    Also, all this talk about Gillen's stories being truncated just makes me think how tragic it is that his run was so short and so derailed by crossovers. That should've been like, a 5 year self contained run. Alas.

  2. #407
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    looooove this thought. I wasn't sure that aspect of X-Men lore was on Hickman's radar, but with the demonic Krakoan history, and the gossip pages' reference to Maddy AND Inferno, it clearly is. Bring on the unified theory of x-demonology!!

    Also, all this talk about Gillen's stories being truncated just makes me think how tragic it is that his run was so short and so derailed by crossovers. That should've been like, a 5 year self contained run. Alas.
    Agreed. The saving grace of it all is that Kieron Gillen was really masterful at making his crossover tie-ins work. Most importantly for the story of his book, but often to the benefit of the main event as well (especially in the cases of AvX and Fear Itself).

  3. #408
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Agreed. The saving grace of it all is that Kieron Gillen was really masterful at making his crossover tie-ins work. Most importantly for the story of his book, but often to the benefit of the main event as well (especially in the cases of AvX and Fear Itself).
    True. I'm pretty sure at the time I thought of Gillen as like, "the event-whisperer." He was never the one leading the event, but through his tie-ins and often little epilogue 1-shots or minis IIRC, you could get basically the only perspective on the event that made it seem good. I think I remember his Journey Into Mystery run being good for event tie-in stuff, too.

    In an attempt to keep things on topic, does this thread already have word of Hickman's tweet suggesting he's asked Gillen to do something Sinister related?
    Last edited by TOTALITY; 09-11-2019 at 11:50 PM.

  4. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    looooove this thought. I wasn't sure that aspect of X-Men lore was on Hickman's radar, but with the demonic Krakoan history, and the gossip pages' reference to Maddy AND Inferno, it clearly is. Bring on the unified theory of x-demonology!
    Tell me Jon doesn't have a chart explaining levels of hell from {AZAZEL} to {S'YM} to {BELASCO} to {DARKCHYLDE} to {GOBLIN QUEEN} to {ADVERSARY} to {SATANNISH} to {CYTORRAK} to {MEPHISTO}

    There's a whole club for Hellfire. This tracks.

  5. #410
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    Yo, who said you can enjoy HOX/POX without knowing decades of X Men continuity? I've read 27 pages of comments and hope someone can answer:

    Pg1, was "Bar Sinister" named in X Men comics outside of SW Battleworld?

    Pg2, was it established that Sinister has multiple clones of himself running around at the same time and with the same memory/ personality?

    Pg3, not having read much X Men since the Claremont era and the Morrison run, how or why did Gillen turn the Victorian era Essex into such a modern and campy character?

    Pg4, "Chop Chop Chop ... Now ... how can I help you?" has Sinister recently been written like Looney Tunes? It takes me out of the story, a lot...

    Pg5, why does Sinister ver1 call his human genetic structure "superior" when the mutans, being the next step in evolution, are literally called "Homo Superior"?

    Pg6, apart from repeating that I don't like the Deadpoolish 4th wall breaking, can I ask to what extent Sinister clones share knowledge? and is there an Original?

    Pg7, I gather that Secret #3's about Madelyn's involvement in Inferno -- haven't read that, what was her pact with the devil? (And which devil?)

    Pg8, thanks to a commenter above, I understand Secret #6 to be about Adamantium Agenda (which I read for Tom Taylor's writing) -- like many, I had thought the mystery of someone in Xavier's Institute not being a real mutant was a dangling plotline, but it seems Morrison in Here Comes Tomorrow had revealed that the progerian Ernst was not a mutant but rather a Sh'iar shapeshifter possessed by the same Cassandra Nova Mummudrai?? (Tell me again you can read this comic as a standalone work...) Sorry for the long and absurdly incomprehensible setup -- that wasn't my question -- what I want to know is, is Ernst still around and is he possibly still the Cassandra alien parasite?

    Pg9, speculative question this, why did Charles choose to wear Cassandra's outfit if he's not somehow possessed by said Mummudrai?

    Pg10, while I still believe X^1 is not the 616 we know, it is impliedly stated by Doug that the original X Men were trapped on Krakoa and Brubaker's Deadly Genesis storyline took place -- if so, what does continuity tell us about what happened to Krakoa after it was blasted into space by Polaris?

    Pg11, what is current state of Doug's TO Virus? Is it a malevolent thing, and should we worry that he's already tainted some leaves with Phalanx-stuff?

    Pg13, "twilight sword" as I've read above is Surtur's weapon -- I know him from Thor Ragnarok (the comic, not the movie) -- has he encountered X Men before, and is his realm literally under the earth? I thought it was on another plane like Asgard?

    Pg14, has Arakko twin of Krakoa been mentioned before? If not, while I do appreciate Hickman's robust worldbuilding, this does seem like a freeeaking huge hidden history to dump in 2 pages of comic...

    Pg15, speculative question, but why does Charles need to remove his hat? Whatever he's hiding under the Cerebro-helmet is already on his head, I'd guess.

    Pg, errr, I lost count -- why did the Phalanx ball absorb two organic bystanders when it's stated in that panel this would mean destruction of the biological entities?

  6. #411
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    Also, all this talk about Gillen's stories being truncated just makes me think how tragic it is that his run was so short and so derailed by crossovers. That should've been like, a 5 year self contained run. Alas.
    Perhaps, but his planned endgame for Scott and Emma would've made a lot of people mad/sad. I would've read it regardless though. I loved the couple but Gillen wrote them and everyone brilliantly. He even made Hope seem almost significant.

    I cannot wait to dig deep into X-demonology.

  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesslow View Post
    Pg1, was "Bar Sinister" named in X Men comics outside of SW Battleworld?

    Pg2, was it established that Sinister has multiple clones of himself running around at the same time and with the same memory/ personality?

    Pg3, not having read much X Men since the Claremont era and the Morrison run, how or why did Gillen turn the Victorian era Essex into such a modern and campy character?

    Pg5, why does Sinister ver1 call his human genetic structure "superior" when the mutans, being the next step in evolution, are literally called "Homo Superior"?

    Pg6, apart from repeating that I don't like the Deadpoolish 4th wall breaking, can I ask to what extent Sinister clones share knowledge? and is there an Original?

    Pg11, what is current state of Doug's TO Virus? Is it a malevolent thing, and should we worry that he's already tainted some leaves with Phalanx-stuff?

    Pg14, has Arakko twin of Krakoa been mentioned before? If not, while I do appreciate Hickman's robust worldbuilding, this does seem like a freeeaking huge hidden history to dump in 2 pages of comic...
    1. This is it's first mention outside of Secret Wars.

    2-6. Kieron Gillen's run established that Sinister had experimented on himself to the point of being his own species. This species is a hivemind with a prime consciousness, which you could call an original. Sinister is arrogant and thinks he's perfect.
    jaw.jpg

    Gillen actually established that Sinister took the hivemind stuff from Phalanx DNA, but I don't know how it squares with Hickman's retcons.

    11. I believe that's Warlock. The leaves situation is weird though.

    14. All of this Krakoa / Okkara / Arakko stuff is completely new.

  8. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Perhaps, but his planned endgame for Scott and Emma would've made a lot of people mad/sad. I would've read it regardless though. I loved the couple but Gillen wrote them and everyone brilliantly. He even made Hope seem almost significant.

    I cannot wait to dig deep into X-demonology.
    Did Kieron ever do an in-depth description of what he would've done?


    In the choice between Sci-Fi and Fantasy, I chose fantasy most of the time, so bring on the demonology!

  9. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I believe that's Warlock. The leaves situation is weird though.
    Do we know for sure? I believe the script for HoX #1 simply said Doug's arm was "Warlock". But it doesn't seem very like Warlock to chill in/on Doug's arm in perpetuity, as he has done so far through this event (and the arm is in the same state in New Mutants preview pages). I assumed it was simply a piece of the main Warlock.

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Did Kieron ever do an in-depth description of what he would've done?
    Used to be on tumblr, but someone on reddit saved it:

    Oh, it was all very provisional, and mostly extrapolations of what I’d already done. Scott continuing the schism, but moreso - I was more comfortable with Scott as a “bad guy”, by the end - I was going to have them in Asteroid M to really lean into it. Emma staying on the team despite the fact she and Scott were no longer together, and lots of tension here. End of the schism for me would have been a confrontation between Scott and Logan’s sides, which Scott wins, and then Emma stabs him in the back at the worst moment takes Scott’s whole organisation (and trainees) away from him, going full “villain.” I half imagined her own school in Latveria as her new status quo. Scott was a weakling… and he’d made her feel weak. For my idea of Emma, that was entirely unforgivable. Emma is nothing if not her pride. (My take on the X-men was that, somewhat uniquely, it doesn’t “need” anyone on the team. The X-men really is a book about the social scene, and the cast is free to move around a bunch. I basically think too many X-men cast have been “redeemed” which removes all the interesting villains, so my run was explicitly moving more of them either towards (or back towards) an antagonist role. Note I don’t say villain. I’m not someone who’s particularly interested in “villains” in drama, as much of my work - Vader, Aphra, WicDiv, Uber - will show.) Oh - most obviously UNIT’s plans would have come to fruition and we’d have had a nice big plot ending with a pretty nifty death scene. There was at least one fight scene I wanted to write - UNIT had hacked all of SWORD’s orbital defences way back in issue 9, so I was going to have him doing full on AKIRA-esque orbital bombardment at will. Probably some more Sinister stuff, but less so. But this is all HYPER provisional - we knew we’d be moving around early enough that I didn’t do anything more than have an idea of what interested me, and ways I’d liked to have taken it. Certainly nothing I’d ever shared with an Editor in any seriousness.

  11. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Used to be on tumblr, but someone on reddit saved it:
    Well ya gotta admit all that sounds pretty ballsy.

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesslow View Post
    Yo, who said you can enjoy HOX/POX without knowing decades of X Men continuity? I've read 27 pages of comments and hope someone can answer:

    Pg1, was "Bar Sinister" named in X Men comics outside of SW Battleworld?
    Hope someone else can answer definitively, but if this is the first 616 mention, then that effectively establishes it as a thing in this continuity well enough for me

    Pg2, was it established that Sinister has multiple clones of himself running around at the same time and with the same memory/ personality?

    Pg3, not having read much X Men since the Claremont era and the Morrison run, how or why did Gillen turn the Victorian era Essex into such a modern and campy character?
    The clones are also a Gillen thing. And the camp..because it's fun? At least it certainly was in Gillen's hands! I think he actually did elaborate on his reasoning at some point, but it may have been on a now defunct social media platform he used to have (what was that? oh, Formspring, I think!)

    Pg7, I gather that Secret #3's about Madelyn's involvement in Inferno -- haven't read that, what was her pact with the devil? (And which devil?)
    I think the phrasing is mostly figurative (although because it's comics it's also almost literal).. it was demons, of Limbo. First S'ym and later, primarily, N'astirh.

    Pg8, thanks to a commenter above, I understand Secret #6 to be about Adamantium Agenda (which I read for Tom Taylor's writing) -- like many, I had thought the mystery of someone in Xavier's Institute not being a real mutant was a dangling plotline, but it seems Morrison in Here Comes Tomorrow had revealed that the progerian Ernst was not a mutant but rather a Sh'iar shapeshifter possessed by the same Cassandra Nova Mummudrai?? (Tell me again you can read this comic as a standalone work...) Sorry for the long and absurdly incomprehensible setup -- that wasn't my question -- what I want to know is, is Ernst still around and is he possibly still the Cassandra alien parasite?
    I haven't read Adamantium Agenda so maybe that will fill in the missing piece of my understanding of this clue, but others pointed me towards Spider-Man and The X-Men #6 from 2015 which has Ernst reveal that she's been acting as a mole for Sinister in exchange for him giving No-Girl a body. But she ultimately fights against him alongside the X-Men and her betrayal only gets her 5 months detention. I was wondering how/why this could be the thing where Hickman needed to specify that the samples were switched, though, because in the issue I just read, Sinister's lab is destroyed but it's not like they specify that all his records were destroyed. Does Adamantium Agenda have something like that?
    Anyway, to answer your main question, that very issue of Spider-Man and the X-Men has this panel I pulled that confirms that as of 2015 at least Ernst was still around and the Cassandra Nova thing still seems in-play...
    Screen Shot 2019-09-11 at 11.21.08 PM.jpg

    Pg9, speculative question this, why did Charles choose to wear Cassandra's outfit if he's not somehow possessed by said Mummudrai?
    Not sure what it means (fashion sense runs in the family?) except that the outfit, and the fact that Hickman's research apparently may have included the comic panel I just posted, makes it seem that Cassandra is not far from Hickman's thoughts...

    Pg10, while I still believe X^1 is not the 616 we know, it is impliedly stated by Doug that the original X Men were trapped on Krakoa and Brubaker's Deadly Genesis storyline took place -- if so, what does continuity tell us about what happened to Krakoa after it was blasted into space by Polaris?
    someone else probably knows better than I (and it's probably just a google search away) but I do know there were Krakoan offspring that showed up early on in Aaron's Wolverine and the X-Men series, so Earth hasn't been devoid of that flora. I don't know what happened to the particular island Polaris launched into space, though.. (sidebar: I still don't think we'd be steeped in *this much* continuity if it wasn't meant to be the continuity we know and/or the one we're moving forward with after the miniseries ends.. but we'll see!)

    Pg11, what is current state of Doug's TO Virus? Is it a malevolent thing, and should we worry that he's already tainted some leaves with Phalanx-stuff?
    I need some filling in on this too. Is it Warlock living on Doug - is he still sentient? I wouldn't call Warlock malevolent (that he isn't is his mutation!) but there's definitely some significance to that contamination panel and I can't wait to find out what it is.

    Pg13, "twilight sword" as I've read above is Surtur's weapon -- I know him from Thor Ragnarok (the comic, not the movie) -- has he encountered X Men before, and is his realm literally under the earth? I thought it was on another plane like Asgard?
    I can't recall the X-Men encountering Surtur. There were those 80's annuals where the X-Men and New Mutants visited Asgard.. but no Surtur IIRC. Bringing in that mythology would be almost like a meta nod to how Walt Simonson's Thor overlapped somewhat with his wife's time as the main X-book writer besides Claremont. The Mutant Massacre crossed over with Thor too... but not in a "mixing of mythologies" type way. I feel like the closest we've got to that is Dani becoming a Valkyrie...

    Skipped your questions I didn't really have anything for! (not even a rambling side comment, lol.)
    Last edited by TOTALITY; 09-12-2019 at 01:13 AM. Reason: typos

  13. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandEleven View Post
    This was my take as well.

    The only mystery to the race is if they are man+machine or mutant+machine, as there was a brief reference to some humans being left alive in a bio-dome like some kind of zoo animal with how dangerous they are being referenced.

    If we track back that Sinister was making his own database of mutant DNA ... my current theory is that we are watching an evolutionary arms race play out: Miora's visions from the apocalypse wars is that of Nimrod eventually evolving to the point that it causes an assention to occur and all individuality to get wiped out. If the mutants can do it first ... build their own nimrod leveraging help from Sinister to kick things off, _they_ become the new man+machine survivors of the war and then can plan for the arrival of the Phalanx in order to essentially save themselves from absorption. "Here's our knowledge, no need to absorb and discard our biology anymore, move on". That's the real reason they even bother to pull Sinister in so early.

    That's my latest take, at least.
    My take is that Life 6 is where Moira decides to go all-in with the machines, and X^3 occurs during Life 6. I’m not sure if Ascension with the Phalanx is part of her plan to save the mutants stored in the library or if that was an unintended consequence, but I’m guessing that something goes wrong and the mutant library is lost. Her experience with AI/Machines causes her to dedicate Life 7 to killing anyone involved in the creation of Sentinels (but that fails because AI is inevitable). However, Life 6 isn’t a waste because the process of copying a person to a host machine is ultimately what lets Sinister and/or Prof. X create copies/clones of the X-Men in Life 10.

  14. #419
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    I need some filling in on this too. Is it Warlock living on Doug - is he still sentient? I wouldn't call Warlock malevolent (that he isn't is his mutation!) but there's definitely some significance to that contamination panel and I can't wait to find out what it is.l.)
    Isn't the Krakoa interface we see with Doug in HoX #1 vaguely techno-organic in nature? (Looking at the panel again it's open to interpretation) It could be as benign as Doug seeding Krakoa with the transmode material necessary for that union.

  15. #420
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    ooh thanks much - i'll have to read gillen's UXM run - sinister's certainly written there as very flamboyant and insanely egotistical, which i can buy for a man so powerful and so old, but hickman's approach is way campy for my liking!

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