View Poll Results: Was Cyclops already over Jean before Emma came along?

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  • Yes

    27 20.77%
  • No

    58 44.62%
  • It's complicated.

    45 34.62%
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  1. #181
    Emma was right Gamall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    You'll actually find that most of the people are fans of Emma Frost didn't really like seeing Jean killed off. To this day I feel that killing off Jean was a cop out because they didn't actually have the courage to write a divorce story. It's no different than Peter and MJ, instead of writing a divorce, they had Peter and MJ sell their "love" to the devil in exchange for saving Aunt May. That's just gross, the whole idea of it is just gross. This is all Joe Quesada believing that Peter and Scott shouldn't be married because it makes them too old for comic book fans. I call bullshit on that, there are lots of popular characters that have been married and even had divorces in comics. I personally thought Morrison was breaking Scott and Jean up in a dramatic way and I was hoping he would follow through on the story, break them up, but Jean deserves to have her chance to shine as a single woman in the process. As a writer I am perfectly fine with them breaking up ships, but the solution isn't to kill one of the people off, the solution is to give the other character a story of their own. It's not like the X-Men don't have multiple books, you have New X-Men carries forward with Scott and Emma as a couple, and you have Jean on a different team like X-Factor, X-Force, or Uncanny X-Men. Killing Jean off was stupid and it's the one thing I truly hate about that time. Even talking about "One More Day" just makes me angry beyond words, it was the stupidest idea that Joe Quesada ever shoved down comic book fans throats.
    I’ll never understand why divorce is such a big no for comics. Like, srsly, these characters is killing, cheating and betraying each other, but somehow divorce is such a taboo, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Oh, the Shattered! I'm not truly invulnerable in my diamond form arc!
    Is that remark supposed to hurt my fan-feelings for Emma or something?

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamall View Post
    I’ll never understand why divorce is such a big no for comics. Like, srsly, these characters is killing, cheating and betraying each other, but somehow divorce is such a taboo, lol.


    Is that remark supposed to hurt my fan-feelings for Emma or something?
    No, of course not... I was just highlighting a little respected fact is all.

  3. #183
    Mighty Member Marvelboy1974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    That is just beautiful and it makes a perfectly relevant point that doesn't get made often enough in X-Men style soap operas.
    Thank you, sir!

  4. #184
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    No, but I think maybe he thought he was.

  5. #185
    Mighty Member Marvelboy1974's Avatar
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    I am willing to bet that there are more people that love both Emma and Jean than are willing to admit. I hate how these kinds of posts result in bashing either of them. I love Jean and Emma!

  6. #186
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamall View Post
    Iíll never understand why divorce is such a big no for comics. Like, srsly, these characters is killing, cheating and betraying each other, but somehow divorce is such a taboo, lol.
    I think there were two compelling reasons this was never explored.

    First, the underlying problems that led to their distance and the affair wouldn't stand up to detailed scrutiny. The totality of all the dialogue related to Scott's reasoning to Emma and Jean's reasoning to Logan adds up to all of about four or five pages. Scott's dialogue in particular is nonsensical and required the readers to lack understanding of their history to accept. In order for that house of cards to be believable at all, it had to remain ambiguous. They had to forget how to talk and break through barriers with each other, relate to each others moods, speak uncomfortable truths to each other, and understand what drove the other. These were all skills that they clearly had long prior to Morrison's run. Deep diving on a divorce story would require exposing the problems in the underlying reasoning. If Scott had in fact been completely screwed up by Apocalypse, and this prevented him from expressing his emotional connection to Jean, it would have made more sense. The text never indicates that's the primary reason for the problems in their marriage, instead suggesting that both of them had been "going through the motions" for well over a decade (in universe time).

    The second and likely more compelling reason is who would want to read that? This is heroic fiction and ultimately escapism. What kid, who probably has parents going through a divorce themselves, wants to read about their heroes doing it, especially these two who's relationship is so central to the X-Men's history and themes?

  7. #187
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelboy1974 View Post
    I am willing to bet that there are more people that love both Emma and Jean than are willing to admit. I hate how these kinds of posts result in bashing either of them. I love Jean and Emma!
    Totally agree. And I can say that despite not enjoying some of the history. They're both still great characters who bring something to the books that no other X-Men can.

  8. #188
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    It takes two to tango!

    Scott chose to engage in an affair with Emma. It was not like Emma was hiding who she was psychically, she was role playing because she likes to play a bit kinky. But in the end Scott could say NO! He's a big boy, he can say NO and then go back to his wife. He didn't do that, he chose to keep doing the psychic affair with Emma behind Jean's back. The only reason Jean found out at all was because Esme told her in the hopes that Jean would hurt Emma. Esme also sold it in a way that played up Emma's role in the affair because Esme wanted Jean angry enough to potentially kill Emma. She was setting Jean up to take the fall when later Esme herself shot Emma, because Esme was setting it up so that Jean would be the one accused of the murder / attempted murder. Esme didn't factor in how powerful Jean was getting with her TK and connection to the Phoenix force and Jean was able to restore Emma's shattered diamond form and restore Emma.

    When Ghost Jean and Emma were talking about it, Jean mentioned how it was one of the most horrible times of her life, and Emma admitted how much she was in love with Scott even at the beginning. For Emma it was one of her happiest relationships.

    It's all perspective, Emma is to blame for chasing a married man, but the married man is to blame for wandering in the first place and for encouraging the attentions of the other woman. Scott did nothing to discourage Emma's pursuit, he was flattered by it, like most men who have affairs are.

    Jean and Scott as a couple had serious communication problems and their marriage was crumbling apart because they wouldn't talk to each other. Jean was constantly trying to get into Scott's head because she was becoming paranoid (the Phoenix was contributing to this of course) and Scott just shut himself down and wouldn't talk about what happened to him. In the end they probably would have only stayed together if they finally wised up and got couples counselling together and not separately.

    So yeah, the whole thing is complicated. There is blame to go all around when a relationship falls apart and an affair occurs. None of them are evil, they are all just human beings who have trouble expressing their feelings properly. I will analyse Emma for a second and wonder if she rushed into the affair with Scott so she wouldn't have to deal with the emotional trauma of what happened in Genosha. So she tried to focus all her feelings on a new relationship instead of trying to deal with all the pain she felt witnessing those children being killed.

    If Jean had lived I am not sure any of them would have ended up together. Emma and Scott may have tried to make a go of it, or Jean and Scott may have tried to get back together and then broken up at some point. Personally this is where bad editorial comes into play, there was a decision by the editors to bury Jean, because they didn't want to do a story about a crumbling marriage and the emotional repercussions of the affair. That's why no one is satisfied with the outcome because there never was any real closure for this storyline, instead of Jean and Scott and Emma figuring things out, the story just killed Jean off, it was a cop out, and a way to avoid writing the full repercussions of what happened.

    At least they didn't have Jean and Scott make a deal with Mephisto to forget their relationship, that would have been even more ridiculously stupid (cough.. Peter and Mary Jane).

    My last word on this was that they shouldn't have killed Jean, they should have actually played out the entire story and everything that spun out of it. They could have done a story where Jean leaves the X-Men for a time and joins the Avengers to get away from Scott and Emma. Eventually Scott and Emma decide it's not working and break up, Scott works really hard and reconciles with Jean, or they don't, maybe Jean decides to date Logan for real. There are so many stories that could have been explored and Jean could have easily stayed alive the whole time.
    I definitely see the Scott/Jean/Emma thing from a different angle.

    Scott was clearly written as suffering from severe PTSD* as a result of the merger with Apocalypse. His marriage hit a rough patch as a result, but wasn't necessarily crumbling. He turned Emma down when she offered a night of sex. Then she offered him a therapist/patient relationship under the guise of helping him. Her real intent was to use his trauma and her superior power as the therapist in the therapist/patient relationship to seduce him. He consented out of a desire for help rather than seeking an affair. She took advantage of him. While I'd never say Scott was blameless, I would say that Emma should get a good bit more than half of the blame.

    * I know a good deal about severe PTSD because I've got it.

  9. #189
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    I think there were two compelling reasons this was never explored.

    First, the underlying problems that led to their distance and the affair wouldn't stand up to detailed scrutiny. The totality of all the dialogue related to Scott's reasoning to Emma and Jean's reasoning to Logan adds up to all of about four or five pages. Scott's dialogue in particular is nonsensical and required the readers to lack understanding of their history to accept. In order for that house of cards to be believable at all, it had to remain ambiguous. They had to forget how to talk and break through barriers with each other, relate to each others moods, speak uncomfortable truths to each other, and understand what drove the other. These were all skills that they clearly had long prior to Morrison's run. Deep diving on a divorce story would require exposing the problems in the underlying reasoning. If Scott had in fact been completely screwed up by Apocalypse, and this prevented him from expressing his emotional connection to Jean, it would have made more sense. The text never indicates that's the primary reason for the problems in their marriage, instead suggesting that both of them had been "going through the motions" for well over a decade (in universe time).

    The second and likely more compelling reason is who would want to read that? This is heroic fiction and ultimately escapism. What kid, who probably has parents going through a divorce themselves, wants to read about their heroes doing it, especially these two who's relationship is so central to the X-Men's history and themes?
    Sometimes is good to see your reality reflected on fiction. I cried on GOTG2 when Star Lord told his father how hard was growing up without a father.
    It is better than the childish story telling sometimes comics adopt with women dying and heroes doing pacts with the demon

    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    People on these forums and others throw the word Rape around way too easily. Personally I feel they don't even understand the true meaning of the word. Just read a few real rape victim statements and then people on this forum may realize that using the word Rape around any comic book relationship they don't like is kind of horrible.
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...-ra#.mszo8oOPp
    I'm pretty sure i'm using the term in a very apropriate way..
    Scott really suffered sexual assault, I have been reading and seeing news about doctors sexually assaulting their victims., it opened my eyes. Also Emma no caring about what consent means
    Last edited by spirit2011; 09-12-2019 at 04:22 PM.
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  10. #190
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Sometimes is good to see your reality reflected on fiction. I cried on GOTG2 when Star Lord told his father how hard was growing up without a father.
    It is better than the childish story telling sometimes comics adopt with women dying and heroes doing pacts with the demon
    Maybe. IMO tackling these subjects work better through allegory. Regardless, the franchise was just beginning to make a comeback at that time. I'm guessing this subject would have been deemed to heavy to tackle. Or the writer simply didn't want to. Or Marvel wanted to hedge their bets when it came to Scott and Jean and avoid a definitive end. Or all of the above.

  11. #191
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Sometimes is good to see your reality reflected on fiction. I cried on GOTG2 when Star Lord told his father how hard was growing up without a father.
    It is better than the childish story telling sometimes comics adopt with women dying and heroes doing pacts with the demon



    I'm pretty sure i'm using the term in a very apropriate way..
    Scott really suffered sexual assault, I have been reading and seeing news about doctors sexually assaulting their victims., it opened my eyes. Also Emma no caring about what consent means
    What Emma and Scott did was not physical so on that merit, it would not classify as rape. She was acting unethical, but it wasnt sexual assault. Besides she isnt an actual doctor so she wasnt breaking any laws. She was a coworker that abused her mutant power

  12. #192
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamall View Post
    - Not everything should be forgiven, especially cheating, especially when there was none redemption. They just saw each other and somehow everything is cool again. EpIc RoManCe vs. interesting relationship development (1:0).
    The X-Men's ethics don't always translate to the real world. These are characters with tremendous powers that have experienced life in a way we can't really relate to on a practical level. What primarily unites them is kinship. Nearly any sin is eventually, if not immediately forgiven. Trace this back to UXM 137. Scott and Ro's take on whether to forgive Jean or not is clear.




    What prompted this forgiveness and willingness to fight, and if necessary die, for a being that was so clearly dangerous and malevolent? They loved her. It's as simple as that. There wasn't any revelation. No development. They simply decided that they loved Jean more than they hated what she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamall View Post
    - If one of the partners cheats on each other, then yes, this couple should never have children. Can't believe that I have to say this.
    I'd argue that a couple that can genuinely recover from infidelity is much stronger than one that can't, or one that was never tested in that way. That actually bodes well for a stable and resilient environment to raise children. The risk of reoccurrence is always there of course. It really depends on the circumstances and the personalities involved, as well as what prompted the infidelity in the first place. There are certainly couples out there who have survived this sort of thing and gone on to have healthy marriages afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamall View Post
    - Cable is a grown man, not a child who can be traumatized by the divorce of his parents.
    I'm not a psychologist but I don't believe there's an an age where trauma becomes irrelevant. Maybe Cable was immune to it. Like his father he's not big on sharing his feelings. Rachel was a mess afterwards, though a lot of that was due to Jean's death. She certainly was deeply hurt by Emma's presence in her father's life however.
    Last edited by Ulfhammer; 09-12-2019 at 06:30 PM.

  13. #193
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    Something else I've said a bunch of times. I do believe that it's possible that Morrison may have been playing with what constitues cheating. Thing is, IMO, it doesn't work on any ambigupus level with Jott. They had a psychic rapport for a long time. Of course she would view this as a betrayal. Perfect example of twisting the characters to fit the plot rather than plotting that fits the characters.
    you do this story with a married couple where neither is a telepath and introduce the telepath as the third party. I still, with a world class telepath involved. that it's still bad. But marginally it may work better.

  14. #194
    Lazy Struggler BitParallel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    2019 and people still calling Scott Neo Magneto? Lawd...
    that was a compliment, hun.

  15. #195
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    Maybe. IMO tackling these subjects work better through allegory. Regardless, the franchise was just beginning to make a comeback at that time. I'm guessing this subject would have been deemed to heavy to tackle. Or the writer simply didn't want to. Or Marvel wanted to hedge their bets when it came to Scott and Jean and avoid a definitive end. Or all of the above.
    There isn't nothing heavy handed on Divoce. they could just have Jean going with Xavier and then return to sign the papers and BOOM it is over.
    Quesada wanted to avoid divorce, because he likes childish story telling, he almost brought back Gwen. I think this childish behavior is what burn people on the big 2 comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    What Emma and Scott did was not physical so on that merit, it would not classify as rape. She was acting unethical, but it wasnt sexual assault. Besides she isnt an actual doctor so she wasnt breaking any laws. She was a coworker that abused her mutant power
    I don't agree. going by this logic Scott never cheated on Jean. You can't have him cheat and then says it wasn't sex
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