View Poll Results: How did you feel about this issue ?

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  1. #31
    Spectacular Member VonHammersmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Bar Minerva doesnt quite have the safari-Earth that I think she wants. By removing Love and compassion, I think Cheetah has reduced us all to her bestial level. We all quite literally will eat each other alive - streets running with blood. Only then, has she created a world, in which her impulses rule, ..with none of humanity's morality or notions of civilization in the way...

    Survival of the fittest. This is the Darwinist obsession I'm talking about.
    You’re giving Cheetah way too much credit, that’s actually LUTHOR’s plan which he’s been building towards since the start of Snyder’s Justice League run. He’s the Apex Predator btw, he goes by "Apex Lex" these days. Cheetah is nothing more than a henchwoman

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    But, if you don't give her this obsession or something similar...I think she's basically Sabertooth. She's a crazy cat-lady running around scratching people, for no apparent reason. She's Catra...the jealous beauty. She's a one-dimensional, Saturday morning cartoon cackling maniacally!

    Mee-ahhaha!! Now, that I've stolen the Magic Bladder Stone, I'll rain golden showers from the skies, all over the world, ..starting with PARADISE ISLAND!!!

    Cheetah, if she's to be Diana's arch, has got to do better than that...be more than that? Don't you think?
    We kind of had what you are describing here with the New 52, and she was just a generic slasher villain. The character that Rucka set up, a woman who is blaming destiny, Gods and the Amazons for the curse brought down upon her and deflecting blame for her own mistakes and becoming a monster, is more compelling than a woman who is a monster already and using the Cheetah for a vague villainous agenda.

    Not that Wilson is doing a super great job, though I think having to write around Snyder's even has something to do with it. She demands Aphrodite bring her to Themyscira then kills her at the slightest show of resistance, and then acts like it was her plan all along?

  3. #33
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    Regarding the lasso in this issue.

    Cheetah pretty much destroyed all of Diana's other gear - the bracers, tiara, shield and sword were all trashed.

    We never even see the lasso in the fight, and Diana never mentions what happened to it.

    So where is it? Does Cheeatah have it? Did she give it to someone? What?

    And it is just mind-boggling that a writer with any sense of who Wonder Woman is could have her signature item stolen and Diana never even mentions it directly. You can bet if someone took Thor's hammer, Cap's shield, or Hal's power-ring, they would be talking about, thinking about... something!

    But there's nothing! Wilson's writing here paints a Wonder Woman that thinks of her lasso the way Batman thinks about a batarang.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Regarding the lasso in this issue.

    Cheetah pretty much destroyed all of Diana's other gear - the bracers, tiara, shield and sword were all trashed.

    We never even see the lasso in the fight, and Diana never mentions what happened to it.

    So where is it? Does Cheeatah have it? Did she give it to someone? What?

    And it is just mind-boggling that a writer with any sense of who Wonder Woman is could have her signature item stolen and Diana never even mentions it directly. You can bet if someone took Thor's hammer, Cap's shield, or Hal's power-ring, they would be talking about, thinking about... something!

    But there's nothing! Wilson's writing here paints a Wonder Woman that thinks of her lasso the way Batman thinks about a batarang.

    I agree that was incredibly sloppy of Wilson. This run has been full of a lot of false hope and this arc is not an exception. I was really excited about the return of Cheetah along with her wielding the Godkiller but the issue really went south fast. Diana being easily beaten by Cheetah, her weapons being destroyed without much effort, calling out for help after Cheetah had fled the battle even though she didn't have any major injuries, and not a single character even asking specifically about the lasso were all major blunders of this issue.
    Currently Reading:Aquaman, Doomsday Clock, Freedom Fighters, Gotham City Monsters, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    A solid issue. I'll give it 3 stars out of 5.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #36
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    We kind of had what you are describing here with the New 52, and she was just a generic slasher villain. The character that Rucka set up, a woman who is blaming destiny, Gods and the Amazons for the curse brought down upon her and deflecting blame for her own mistakes and becoming a monster, is more compelling than a woman who is a monster already and using the Cheetah for a vague villainous agenda...
    It's the George Perez model. There is a human woman behind the fur and claws, and she is the monster. Doesn't mean that woman wasn't genuinely in love, with Etta Candy, at one time...and deeply affected by that. I part ways with you, when you suggest that the ruined love-story be Bar's prime motivation for villainy, ..if that is your suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    You’re giving Cheetah way too much credit, that’s actually LUTHOR’s plan which he’s been building towards since the start of Snyder’s Justice League run. He’s the Apex Predator btw, he goes by "Apex Lex" these days. Cheetah is nothing more than a henchwoman
    Oh, trust me...don't like Luthor being the foreman on this disaster, anymore than you do. All the more reason, I rally for Cheetah getting a broader, more existential motivation for why she does her Cheetah-things. She shouldn't need Luthor for anything, but, the occasional team-up.

    Hopefully, the film will fix this.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think the point is she was, when Rucka was writing her. She didnt even want to be the Cheetah.

    For me, a much more piognant reason for Minerva to kill love would be because her own love with Etta was basically murdered by Cale. So now she is acting out against the whole concept of love, trying to show how it promises happiness but ultimately dies unfulfilled and leaves nothing but emptiness.

    (Damn, that’s actually pretty good LOL)
    I like that backstory, well enough. If Cheetah's to be the arch, however, I think she'll need a broader and more versatile motivation. There needs to be a clear threat and consequence for Wonder Woman failing to stop her.

    With Grail, Ares and Clea, the consequences for Diana's failure are clearer. Less fur, I guess...
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 09-13-2019 at 08:02 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post


    I like that backstory, well enough. If Cheetah's to be the arch, however, I think she'll need a broader and more versatile motivation. There needs to be a clear threat and consequence for Wonder Woman failing to stop her.

    With Grail, Ares and Clea, the consequences for Diana's failure are clearer. Less fur, I guess...
    The clear and frequent consequence of Wonder Woman failing in this run is that some other character will step in to get the job done... Aphrodite, Maggie, Atlantiades, Nubia....

    I'm betting that when this arc reaches the finale, it WON'T be Diana who takes down Cheetah. Based on how this run has progressed so far, I'd say it will be Cale or Atlantiades. But Wonder Woman scoring a clean win would definitely be going against the grain of GWW's writing style.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    It's the George Perez model. There is a human woman behind the fur and claws, and she is the monster. Doesn't mean that woman wasn't genuinely in love, with Etta Candy, at one time...and deeply affected by that. I part ways with you, when you suggest that the ruined love-story be Bar's prime motivation for villainy, ..if that is your suggestion.
    I didn't suggest the ruined love story was part of her motivation, or the main thing, since I'm not wild about it in the first place. It was honestly kind of an afterthought to everything else going on with her in Rucka's run.

    She is the monster now, but she didn't start out as a monster, just a fallible human with some moral lapses. it's not really the George Perez or Geoff Johns model. Rucka sort of combined Perez's Minerva and Marston's Priscilla Rich, and I feel made her a stronger character because of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Oh, trust me...don't like Luthor being the foreman on this disaster, anymore than you do. All the more reason, I rally for Cheetah getting a broader, more existential motivation for why she does her Cheetah-things. She shouldn't need Luthor for anything, but, the occasional team-up.

    Hopefully, the film will fix this.
    Agreed, Lex being involved totally blows.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    With Grail, Ares and Clea, the consequences for Diana's failure are clearer. Less fur, I guess...
    For there to be consequences with Clea, writers would have to remember she exists. Which I wish they would, but besides making a brief return in the Jimenez run, she's an underdeveloped relic from the Golden Age that desperately needs dusting off. We shouldn't be looking to her for what to do with Cheetah.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The clear and frequent consequence of Wonder Woman failing in this run is that some other character will step in to get the job done... Aphrodite, Maggie, Atlantiades, Nubia....

    I'm betting that when this arc reaches the finale, it WON'T be Diana who takes down Cheetah. Based on how this run has progressed so far, I'd say it will be Cale or Atlantiades. But Wonder Woman scoring a clean win would definitely be going against the grain of GWW's writing style.
    I can remember some saying WW was being diminished by being with SM in the new 52 or teaming with Batman in a short series!! But it seem to me that she's being diminished in her own comic!! By the writer GWW.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotchj View Post
    I can remember some saying WW was being diminished by being with SM in the new 52 or teaming with Batman in a short series!! But it seem to me that she's being diminished in her own comic!! By the writer GWW.
    She IS being written absolutely terribly by GWW, but that doesn't change the fact that Nu52 WW was a horrid mess, with or without her ill-advised relationship with Superman ("They're meant to be because they wear matching costumes and have matching powers". Right). The two are not mutually exclusive.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnn View Post
    She IS being written absolutely terribly by GWW, but that doesn't change the fact that Nu52 WW was a horrid mess, with or without her ill-advised relationship with Superman ("They're meant to be because they wear matching costumes and have matching powers". Right). The two are not mutually exclusive.
    Those weren't the only reasons they were together in the New 52. It had been teased for yeeeeears, even before the start of the Post-Crisis era. It was the culmination of all that teasing and we finally got to see what a relationship between the two of them could be like. I thought it was satisfying and for everyone that hated it someone else liked it.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Those weren't the only reasons they were together in the New 52. It had been teased for yeeeeears, even before the start of the Post-Crisis era. It was the culmination of all that teasing and we finally got to see what a relationship between the two of them could be like. I thought it was satisfying and for everyone that hated it someone else liked it.
    Whatever ones opinion on the relationship itself was, the verifiable fact of how it was presented was that their shared comic book quickly became dominated by Superman’s narrative.

    Which is exactly what most people felt a relationship between the two of them would be like.

    On the flip side, GWW goes almost completely the other way. Steve disappears from the book for months at a time in favour of the writer’s own creations. In a way that I doubt Lois Lane would ever gust fall out of Supermans book for prolonged periods.

    Especially when these new creations spend a lot of time either schooling Diana on her inadequacies or flat out upstaging her.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    For me, a much more piognant reason for Minerva to kill love would be because her own love with Etta was basically murdered by Cale. So now she is acting out against the whole concept of love, trying to show how it promises happiness but ultimately dies unfulfilled and leaves nothing but emptiness.

    (Damn, that’s actually pretty good LOL)
    That could be a compelling reason for Minerva.

    Or if Cheetah was acting out on behalf of an unrequired love Minerva has for Diana (a call back to Priscilla Rich's two personalities).

    But in this issue, Cheetah killing Aphrodite was more random (oh, no one else is here?) rather than by design.

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Whatever ones opinion on the relationship itself was, the verifiable fact of how it was presented was that their shared comic book quickly became dominated by Superman’s narrative.

    As long as Charles Soule was writing it that wasn't the case. It wasn't until Tomasi took over and Doomed that the train went off the rails. In any event DC got some trades out of it to sell in bookstores to anyone interested in them as a romantic couple and those first few issues were great.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    As long as Charles Soule was writing it that wasn't the case. It wasn't until Tomasi took over and Doomed that the train went off the rails. In any event DC got some trades out of it to sell in bookstores to anyone interested in them as a romantic couple and those first few issues were great.
    Perhaps, but the most important word is “few”. As in, much less than the whole.

    Now we have Steve, though it seems GWW is trying to make room for her own little pet project. Hopefully her imminent departure keeps that from happening.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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