Is current Loki the same Loki from the early Marvel days?

[Dcnewb]

I’ve been reading about Loki’s history and boy is it confusing. I was hoping if anybody can help me out with this, but is urge current 616 Loki the same one (soul etc) as the original Loki from the Stan Lee and Kirby stories? .

[Riimi]

Simple answer: Yes
Long, complicated answer: Most likely

Do note that I'm not a writer or anything; I speak with no more authority than that of a (dedicated) fan. Also, most of my knowledge is "modern", i.e., dating from Journey into Mystery onwards. If you have questions about Loki's continuity from the Stan Lee/Kirby era up til Siege, I can't answer them, but I believe that's typically all considered the same Loki, stealing Sif's body notwithstanding.

Also, the "modern" era is pretty convoluted, so I'm just going to bet you're asking mostly about that.

I'm also going to spoil the hell out of a lot of stuff -- it's impossible to discuss this, for instance, without talking about the ending to Journey into Mystery. I would highly recommend reading that if you're interested in Loki, or even just in general, it's good. So, you're forewarned

spoilers:

Loki died in the original Siege comic event. And here's when the Loki stories started to get meta -- and then the Thor stories, by overflow. Sometime while he was still alive, the original Loki realized that he was too predictable and, as a villain, destined to lose. So, he messed around with fate, specifically what would happen to him after death. Instead of going to whichever Norse afterlife he'd earned (insert argument here about Hel vs Valhalla, since he technically died in battle), he was reincarnated as a new person (though I'm not sure if that was the same soul -- how do we define a soul, etc etc, but they're treated as separate entities). Kid Loki was cool and non-villainous, but haunted by a version of his past self that only he could see (Ikol). Without summing up the entirety of that story, in the last act Kid Loki has to over-write himself with Ikol in order to stop Mephisto. (It's complicated enough that I can't remember all the dominoes off-hand -- basically, Ikol manipulated things behind the scenes so he could come back.) Thus, at the end of the story, Loki is the original Loki, albeit in Kid Loki's body. This state of affairs continues thru Young Avengers (although he gets aged up) and into Agent of Asgard. Here's where the "maybe" comes in: At the end of Agent of Asgard, Loki rewrites himself into the god/dess of stories. This comes with a personality shift, and I think it's a matter of debate whether this Loki is the same being as the "original" Loki. To further complicate matters, then that comic ended and Loki got picked up by Jason Aaron in his Thor comics, where he mostly ignored/retconned the end of Agent of Asgard (and caused some tumult among the fandom, iirc). It's not explicitly retconned so much as mostly ignored, and Loki gets sucked back into being the god of lies. Cates (again in Thor) picked up where Aaron left off, and most writers who have Loki "guest" in their comics just don't really address it. There's also a split right now in writers who consider him the god of stories (following Agent of Asgard's ending) and those who consider him the god of outcasts (following the lamentably short-lived "Loki" comic). Right now, Ewing is writing Defenders with a version of Loki who is god of stories. It remains to be seen how that will all tie together.

end of spoilers

[Lee Stone]

Simple answer: Yes
Long, complicated answer: Most likely

Do note that I'm not a writer or anything; I speak with no more authority than that of a (dedicated) fan. Also, most of my knowledge is "modern", i.e., dating from Journey into Mystery onwards. If you have questions about Loki's continuity from the Stan Lee/Kirby era up til Siege, I can't answer them, but I believe that's typically all considered the same Loki, stealing Sif's body notwithstanding.

Also, the "modern" era is pretty convoluted, so I'm just going to bet you're asking mostly about that.

I'm also going to spoil the hell out of a lot of stuff -- it's impossible to discuss this, for instance, without talking about the ending to Journey into Mystery. I would highly recommend reading that if you're interested in Loki, or even just in general, it's good. So, you're forewarned

spoilers:

Loki died in the original Siege comic event. And here's when the Loki stories started to get meta -- and then the Thor stories, by overflow. Sometime while he was still alive, the original Loki realized that he was too predictable and, as a villain, destined to lose. So, he messed around with fate, specifically what would happen to him after death. Instead of going to whichever Norse afterlife he'd earned (insert argument here about Hel vs Valhalla, since he technically died in battle), he was reincarnated as a new person (though I'm not sure if that was the same soul -- how do we define a soul, etc etc, but they're treated as separate entities). Kid Loki was cool and non-villainous, but haunted by a version of his past self that only he could see (Ikol). Without summing up the entirety of that story, in the last act Kid Loki has to over-write himself with Ikol in order to stop Mephisto. (It's complicated enough that I can't remember all the dominoes off-hand -- basically, Ikol manipulated things behind the scenes so he could come back.) Thus, at the end of the story, Loki is the original Loki, albeit in Kid Loki's body. This state of affairs continues thru Young Avengers (although he gets aged up) and into Agent of Asgard. Here's where the "maybe" comes in: At the end of Agent of Asgard, Loki rewrites himself into the god/dess of stories. This comes with a personality shift, and I think it's a matter of debate whether this Loki is the same being as the "original" Loki. To further complicate matters, then that comic ended and Loki got picked up by Jason Aaron in his Thor comics, where he mostly ignored/retconned the end of Agent of Asgard (and caused some tumult among the fandom, iirc). It's not explicitly retconned so much as mostly ignored, and Loki gets sucked back into being the god of lies. Cates (again in Thor) picked up where Aaron left off, and most writers who have Loki "guest" in their comics just don't really address it. There's also a split right now in writers who consider him the god of stories (following Agent of Asgard's ending) and those who consider him the god of outcasts (following the lamentably short-lived "Loki" comic). Right now, Ewing is writing Defenders with a version of Loki who is god of stories. It remains to be seen how that will all tie together.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Didn't he die during Disassembled with the rest of the Asgargians, too? I can't remember.

end of spoilers

[Dcnewb]

Simple answer: Yes
Long, complicated answer: Most likely

Do note that I'm not a writer or anything; I speak with no more authority than that of a (dedicated) fan. Also, most of my knowledge is "modern", i.e., dating from Journey into Mystery onwards. If you have questions about Loki's continuity from the Stan Lee/Kirby era up til Siege, I can't answer them, but I believe that's typically all considered the same Loki, stealing Sif's body notwithstanding.

Also, the "modern" era is pretty convoluted, so I'm just going to bet you're asking mostly about that.

I'm also going to spoil the hell out of a lot of stuff -- it's impossible to discuss this, for instance, without talking about the ending to Journey into Mystery. I would highly recommend reading that if you're interested in Loki, or even just in general, it's good. So, you're forewarned

spoilers:

Loki died in the original Siege comic event. And here's when the Loki stories started to get meta -- and then the Thor stories, by overflow. Sometime while he was still alive, the original Loki realized that he was too predictable and, as a villain, destined to lose. So, he messed around with fate, specifically what would happen to him after death. Instead of going to whichever Norse afterlife he'd earned (insert argument here about Hel vs Valhalla, since he technically died in battle), he was reincarnated as a new person (though I'm not sure if that was the same soul -- how do we define a soul, etc etc, but they're treated as separate entities). Kid Loki was cool and non-villainous, but haunted by a version of his past self that only he could see (Ikol). Without summing up the entirety of that story, in the last act Kid Loki has to over-write himself with Ikol in order to stop Mephisto. (It's complicated enough that I can't remember all the dominoes off-hand -- basically, Ikol manipulated things behind the scenes so he could come back.) Thus, at the end of the story, Loki is the original Loki, albeit in Kid Loki's body. This state of affairs continues thru Young Avengers (although he gets aged up) and into Agent of Asgard. Here's where the "maybe" comes in: At the end of Agent of Asgard, Loki rewrites himself into the god/dess of stories. This comes with a personality shift, and I think it's a matter of debate whether this Loki is the same being as the "original" Loki. To further complicate matters, then that comic ended and Loki got picked up by Jason Aaron in his Thor comics, where he mostly ignored/retconned the end of Agent of Asgard (and caused some tumult among the fandom, iirc). It's not explicitly retconned so much as mostly ignored, and Loki gets sucked back into being the god of lies. Cates (again in Thor) picked up where Aaron left off, and most writers who have Loki "guest" in their comics just don't really address it. There's also a split right now in writers who consider him the god of stories (following Agent of Asgard's ending) and those who consider him the god of outcasts (following the lamentably short-lived "Loki" comic). Right now, Ewing is writing Defenders with a version of Loki who is god of stories. It remains to be seen how that will all tie together.

end of spoilers

Thanks for that, really appreciate the detail.

As for soul, I guess my definition was like his consciousness which survives death.

[Hypestyle]

too bad that Loki never really pays for his evil-er deeds.

[Dcnewb]

UPDATE:

I’ve actually just watched Comics Explained’s video of Kid Loki, and he suggests that Ikol isn’t a real character and just basically Kid Loki just wanting to be a trickster again. Henceforth Kid Loki didn’t literally die in the finale of JIM and that was just a metaphor for him giving in to that urge.



Thoughts?

[Ultimate Captain America]

spoilers:

Didn't he die during Disassembled with the rest of the Asgargians, too? I can't remember.

end of spoilers

All of them died and reincarnated in mortals. When Thor came back, he searched for all those reincarnated Asgardians to restore them to their former selves. He first planned to leave Loki aside, but Loki managed to arrange things so that he restored him as well, thinking he was restoring Sif. He had to resurrect in a female body, but that's better than death, and he later showed he could change at will from female to male and back as needed.

But, in the long run... you can pile that into the "died and came back, move on, nothing to see here" list.

[D.Z]

Secret Wars destroyed the previous Marvel universe, most characters now are copies with the exception of few.

[Dcnewb]

Secret Wars destroyed the previous Marvel universe, most characters now are copies with the exception of few.

Still the same souls/consciousness in the new bodies though

[Dcnewb]

So I found this article on Marvel’s official website which was written last year and it says that Ikol is in-fact the original Loki from the pre-siege days.

“However, Prime Loki’s influence was still felt as Kid Loki’s crow companion, Ikol. Kid Loki allowed the original Loki’s mind to live inside of Ikol, but Ikol had his own plans. He manipulated events so that Kid Loki would submit and allow his consciousness to be overridden. Although he was still Kid Loki for a while longer with the Young Avengers, this youthful version was still the old Loki at heart.“

https://www.marvel.com/amp/articles/...-in-the-comics

[D.Z]

Still the same souls/consciousness in the new bodies though

Not really. And consciousness themselves don't always get transfered. Best to see them as both redone and cut and paste copies.

[Dcnewb]

Not really. And consciousness themselves don't always get transfered. Best to see them as both redone and cut and paste copies.

Hmm that’s interesting, do you have any basis for this?

I’ve always thought that all comic character are suggested to canonically have their original consciousness/soul after being recreated after such events, because otherwise it just kinda defeats the whole purpose of being invested in them as a reader or fan. Like imagine if the the MCU characters that came back after the blip were said to be copies, I’d think a lot do people who are invested in the franchise would be dismayed or lose investment with in any of the characters