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  1. #31
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Racebending white characters into non-white characters is not remotely the same as whitewashing. The former adds diversity, the latter erases it. With very few exceptions, most white characters in superhero comics do not need to be white in order to work. Hell, in the case of the Legion, two of their characters, Ferro Lad and Shadow Lass were originally going to be black but this was nixed by editors. So there's an argument to be made that racebending (we'll use this as a term for making white characters poc) is a good thing. It can be handled poorly (like with New 52 Wally West, Bendis' Legion arguably) but it can be done well (MCU Nick Fury, DCEU Aquaman, Young Justice Artemis).

    So why bother with racebending? Because it can be as valid a choice as creating new characters if done right. Normalizing the existence of poc characters will never be a problem. And in the case of the Legion, the cultures being "negated" are fictional to begin with.
    First, I so accept "racebending" in adaptations - though even there, I do generally prefer characters to look as much like their comics counterparts as possible.

    Effectively, this nullifies all your examples, which are all adaptations into different media. I can't think of a single race-bent character in comics that have been served by randomly changing the colour of their skin. Not one.

    And none of this changes how utterly reductive such a move is. "Diversity" does not excuse it in any direction.

    Also, please, no more of the excuse that the only way you can get people to buy characters of colour (incidentally, the whole "people of colour" thing grates on me just as a phrase because, again, it is defining people purely according to the colour of their skin - though it is, admittedly a convenient catch-all) is to "convert" white characters. It's a disgusting argument in the first place and the enduring popularity of original and legacy characters of minority backgrounds disproves it completely.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    First, I so accept "racebending" in adaptations - though even there, I do generally prefer characters to look as much like their comics counterparts as possible.

    Effectively, this nullifies all your examples, which are all adaptations into different media. I can't think of a single race-bent character in comics that have been served by randomly changing the colour of their skin. Not one.

    And none of this changes how utterly reductive such a move is. "Diversity" does not excuse it in any direction.

    Also, please, no more of the excuse that the only way you can get people to buy characters of colour (incidentally, the whole "people of colour" thing grates on me just as a phrase because, again, it is defining people purely according to the colour of their skin - though it is, admittedly a convenient catch-all) is to "convert" white characters. It's a disgusting argument in the first place and the enduring popularity of original and legacy characters of minority backgrounds disproves it completely.
    I never said racebending was the only way to get people to buy characters of colour. I said it could be just as legitimate if done well and should not be used as an excuse to leave out original poc. We've already seen that with black Nick Fury and Daisy Johnson who was rewritten to be of Chinese descent like her t.v. counterpart.

    It's a term used to refer to people who aren't white. That's it. It's no different than black people calling themselves black.

    Furthermore, this whole "don't define characters by the color of their skin" argument is always a meaningless one. Of course, no one wants a character defined entirely by their skin color. Such a character existing is one of the biggest obstacles to diversity in the first place. How do you know Bendis will write the racebent characters like this? It's certainly not how he writes non-white characters.

  3. #33
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    To answer the OP, I'm still on the fence a bit on Bendis, leaning towards him doing more good than bad.

  4. #34
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I never said racebending was the only way to get people to buy characters of colour. I said it could be just as legitimate if done well and should not be used as an excuse to leave out original poc. We've already seen that with black Nick Fury and Daisy Johnson who was rewritten to be of Chinese descent like her t.v. counterpart.

    It's a term used to refer to people who aren't white. That's it. It's no different than black people calling themselves black.

    Furthermore, this whole "don't define characters by the color of their skin" argument is always a meaningless one. Of course, no one wants a character defined entirely by their skin color. Such a character existing is one of the biggest obstacles to diversity in the first place. How do you know Bendis will write the racebent characters like this? It's certainly not how he writes non-white characters.
    To be clear, I think that Bendis is extremely good at writing and creating non-white characters. He's probably one of the best in comics. That's absolutely not the issue.

    I have also already said that I don't mind changes when adapting from one medium to another.

    The point is that racebending a character, specifically within the same medium (which is rather easier in comics than live-action film) is a retrograde practice that does, on one level or another, reduce both people and entire cultures according to the colour of their skin. And, again, why on earth do something this tacky when you can create original characters with varying backgrounds instead?
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  5. #35
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    Racebending white characters is lazy, cheap, silly, embarrassing, and largely ineffective, because oftentimes, the characters just revert back to being white, or are sometimes white, other times some other race, because they often have too well established a history of being white. I've also been thinking that in a while people will look back on it with embarrassment, like many often do now regarding putting the word "Black" before nearly every black hero's name, as was often done in the '70s. Something that some well-meaning people may have thought was good, but in retrospect is silly and pigeonholing.

  6. #36
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    I can't say I am a fan so far. It's a shame as I like a lot of Bendis' Marvel work but I am not a fan of his Superman work and the creative decisions he has made.
    “Somewhere, in our darkest night, we made up the story of a man who will never let us down.”

    - Grant Morrison on Superman

  7. #37
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Never liked his Marvel work, still don't like his DC work. Especially now Bendis is falling back into old habits again.

  8. #38
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    I liked most of his Marvel work, though I felt his X-men run ran off the rails towards the end. I really don't like his DC work at all so far. I feel like DC had a good thing going with the Rebirth Superman and he completely ruined the family dynamic. I've heard Naomi is pretty great so I might check out the trade sometime.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    Thank you! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who finds race-swapping characters to be, at best, horribly misjudged. It's largely seen as OK now by liberal types (of which I normally am one) but I do think it's one of those things that everyone's going to look back at in a few years with real embarrassment.
    People do feel the same way you do. There are plenty of established POC out there. The issue is getting someone to USE them. And I am NOT limiting that to Bendis but OTHERS.

    See Storm-she's crap in her own franchise books yet well done (to a point) in SOMEONE else's book.
    Wallace same thing. Although with Priest leaving that will be over.
    Duke Thomas-who doesn't exist in Batman's book. Yet does in OUtsiders.

    I know that's not *intended* to be racist, to say that all of the *dozen or so* black and Asian Legionnaires suck and need to be replaced by turning a few of the white ones black or Asian, but it sure comes off a bit iffy.
    What if he was told those were the only ones he could use?

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