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  1. #136
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    He just like: Imma wait here.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  2. #137
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I took it literally. I mean, that panel with jon seemed metallic.
    I guess it's just the art style. The panel with him floating in the apartment was also at end of DKIII and he wasn't metallic there.

    So, i thought it might be connected to the Golden superman thing. If the buddha comparison is a blunt as Jesus/moses comparison to clark. Then i could see a story coming together.
    Siddhartha's father was a very powerful man like clark is. Birth of the Siddhartha was a little weird to say the least. Suffice to say Siddhartha's father tried to sheild him from all worldly miseries with his might. But, Siddhartha's ventures out comes to know about death and diseases. It torments him and he decides to find an answer for it. He became shakyamuni. He attained enlightenment with slght assist from sujata.
    So, i imagined this to be story like that with clark and jon.
    Miller's comparison to Buddha was just about the kid floating and being magical. I didn't read much into it.

    "He really sort of developed as a little floating Buddha, someone who when he wasn’t even a toddler yet was speaking in full sentences and had an understanding of events that surpassed anybody else’s. He’s the most magical member of the family."

    https://ew.com/books/2019/09/13/fran...-golden-child/

  3. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    I guess it's just the art style. The panel with him floating in the apartment was also at end of DKIII and he wasn't metallic there.



    Miller's comparison to Buddha was just about the kid floating and being magical. I didn't read much into it.

    "He really sort of developed as a little floating Buddha, someone who when he wasn’t even a toddler yet was speaking in full sentences and had an understanding of events that surpassed anybody else’s. He’s the most magical member of the family."

    https://ew.com/books/2019/09/13/fran...-golden-child/
    there are stories of buddha being exceptionally intelligent and contemplating from the get go. So, i get the comparison. I still think the golden child title has more meaning though.

  4. #139
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Bad takes would have happened with or without AUs. Some writers are just wrong. Blaming AUs for bad writing is a bad argument.
    The writers are wrong because they take the wrong lessons away from AUs. The AUs are to blame because they popularize bad ideas that DC and its writers duplicate to make a quick buck.

    Which one did Waid write again?
    Kingdom Come

    And so what? Sometimes thing are popular. That's okay. For all the popular "Superman is a goon/weak/dictator" takes there's a popular "Superman is good" take. Good takes also keep popping up, so why all the focus on just when the bad ones pop back up? As for AU Superman stories that aren't dark 80's/90's riffs? All Star, American Alien, Man and Superman (don't care that it was written to be in canon, it never wound up being so), Birthright (it was meant to be out of continuity so I'm counting it), Earth One (controversial, but not same tropes from 80s/90s), just to name the ones I'm familiar with, more well versed fans could probably name more.
    You're naming "good" stories that are over a decade old by now. I'm talking about new stuff. When was the last time DC put out a story in which Superman is portrayed with the same fun, love, and warmth as he was in All Star Superman a decade ago? If All Star Superman was indeed just as impactful as the dark AUs, then where are all of its riffs and permutations?

    For fictional characters the interests of the audience are the only things that are to and of the point. And for a character who has remained relatively the same for decades I think that storytelling supports not drastically upheaving everything. But to each their own. I'm not getting into another Jon debate so listen up - no argument will ever win me on him being a good thing to the Superman Family or Mythos, so lets agree to disagree on that point. The AU debate is much more worthwhile.
    I'm not trying to convince you to like Jon Kent as the status quo. Superman continuity didn't evolve for decades because it was the Pre-Crisis era in which every comic story was more episodic rather than serialized. In the Post-Crisis era, things changed. The same storytelling shift that happened with television happened with comics: there was a move away from one shot episodes and procedurals to more long form storytelling in which characters grow and change. You said you couldn't disagree more to the idea that Jon's existence was a natural evolution of the storytelling. That's simply not true. It's just a story development you don't like.

    I think you misunderstood what I meant my nullification - it isn't that good takes nullifies bad takes from happening or causing influence, but that popular good takes nullifies the so-called "harm" of bad takes because they all balance out. Bad takes will get a green light - so too will good takes. No AU will damage Superman because Superman will always have a plethora of good stories and takes backing him up. And I already mentioned some popular AUs to balance things out, some fans can name even more, and others will come. Personally I'm really looking forward to Superman Smashes the Klan for example.
    I'm looking forward to Superman Smashes the Klan, but we're talking about the impact of AUs. The impact of the dark AUs has permeated DC's choices for Superman for decades, including the kind of AUs the company continues to green light. While you may get equal numbers of dark and light AUs, how likely is it that any ideas from Yang's Klan book are going to make their way into the pop culture zeitgeist, particularly when it comes to Superman? Dark ideas from TDKR, Kingdom Come, and Injustice continue to shape pop culture perceptions of Superman in ways that the ideas from lighter ideas from AUs do not.

    As for comparing AU books to status quo changes, it isn't nonsense - AUs are temporary affairs lasting only for one story arc, and are or will be a dime a dozen. Status quo changes can last for years, maybe a decade or better, and will therefore have much longer lasting impact than an AU that is popular with a segment of the fandom for a while before they move on to something else.
    The effects of AUs transfer to the mainstream status quo. Superman was Superdad in AUs long before he was one in the comics. The AUs are where the seeds for status quo changes happen.

    Dude, calm down, your posts are coming off kinda angry and energetic. Now admittedly I could be wrong, tone is a hard thing to infer from text, but you might need to take a breath.
    You're wrong.

    Now - Countless AU evil Superman stories? Dark Knight Returns, which is kind of debatable, Red Son, again debatable, and Injustice, which is legit evil. That's all I'm drawing here (others I wouldn't call "evil" however broken you may view them - Kingdom Come may have been broken, but ended whole again). How many evil Superman stories are really out there and popular right now? Not as many as I think you are arguing. Basically a few, maybe several, more than enough to be balanced out by heroic AUs. Here I'll try it out - Injustice=All Star, Red Son=Earth One (or the upcoming Smashes if you think EO is one of those"broken" Supermen), DKR=American Alien.
    And I don't know what you're arguing, I never said I had anything against Superman being a Superdad in AUs, I just feel it should have stayed an AU concept. I'm not blaming any AUs for bringing it to canon though, that's all of the writer and whoever stupidly okayed it.
    Neither Earth One nor American Alien are light or even good Superman AUs. American Alien was written by a godawful person, too. I don't agree that there's a balance for the simple reason is that there's much more investment and attention paid to the dark than there is to the light. The dark tropes are the ones that are constantly repeated rather than the light ones. While I can point to one idea from All Star Superman that become a trope (e.g. comforting someone who is suicidal) and one of the three origins you mentioned permeating some other media (e.g. Birthright), entire plots and characterizations have been lifted from dark AUs and repurposed in new AUs or mainstream continuity. The conservative establishment figure in TDKR became the Boy Scout of the Post-Crisis. Kingdom Come spawned comic book spinoffs and is a concept that has been revisited several times since publication. Its most despicable legacy was the trope of Joker killing Lois Lane, which was revisited in Injustice. Injustice is practically its own subsidiary brand for DC. None of the light AUs have had that kind of impact. Maybe Yang's AU will launch a new age of stories of Superman as a crusader for diversity and tolerance in ways that speak to the social ills of today, but I'm not holding my breath.

    The bottom line is that if you look at the landscape of AU stories -- light and dark -- and you are absolutely honest about where DC places its energy and focus (i.e. What ideas have become more mainstream and popularized?), then it's obvious that the dark stories are the ones that have had more of an impact. It's Frank Miller, the author who wrote and influenced a lot of those darker tropes, who keeps getting to write Superman stories for DC. I am in no way suggesting there aren't any light stories that get attention and love from DC and its readers, but for some reason these stories just don't seem to become their own brand the way the dark ones do. And that's why Nelliebly and I believe the dark Superman AUs are more damaging than status quo changes like Superdad, especially when Superdad was initially an AU trope that was brought over to mainstream continuity at a time when the storytelling was there to support its inclusion.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Master Race was announced in April 2015: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/0...urns-to-batman As stated by Azzarello in the announcement him and Miller were working on it already from 6 months. That's a lot of time before Convergence came out or was even written.
    Didn't you post a link, from the "Word Balloon Podcast", about how Dan Jurgens wanted to introduce Jon on "Future Ends", but Didio nixed that idea.

    Here is a link about Superman as a father, lol at Larry, and mos of Pre-Crisis children were unnamed.

  6. #141
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cata View Post
    Didn't you post a link, from the "Word Balloon Podcast", about how Dan Jurgens wanted to introduce Jon on "Future Ends", but Didio nixed that idea.

    Here is a link about Superman as a father, lol at Larry, and mos of Pre-Crisis children were unnamed.
    He didn't wanted to introduce Jon, he just wanted Lois and Clark having a baby. No name was suggested.

  7. #142
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    The writers are wrong because they take the wrong lessons away from AUs. The AUs are to blame because they popularize bad ideas that DC and its writers duplicate to make a quick buck.
    If they take the wrong lesson from AUs, that probably means they'd have taken the wrong lessons from in canon stories and elsewhere too. Again, don't blame the AUs, blame the writers.

    You're naming "good" stories that are over a decade old by now. I'm talking about new stuff. When was the last time DC put out a story in which Superman is portrayed with the same fun, love, and warmth as he was in All Star Superman a decade ago? If All Star Superman was indeed just as impactful as the dark AUs, then where are all of its riffs and permutations?
    So? You keep naming Dark Knight Returns, and that's well over 30 years old. Kingdom Come is well over 20. Why do only the good stories need to be recent? Only new stuff you've mentioned is Injustice.
    And though I haven't read it, wasn't a lot of the Superdad stuff supposed to be warm and loving?

    I'm not trying to convince you to like Jon Kent as the status quo. Superman continuity didn't evolve for decades because it was the Pre-Crisis era in which every comic story was more episodic rather than serialized. In the Post-Crisis era, things changed. The same storytelling shift that happened with television happened with comics: there was a move away from one shot episodes and procedurals to more long form storytelling in which characters grow and change. You said you couldn't disagree more to the idea that Jon's existence was a natural evolution of the storytelling. That's simply not true. It's just a story development you don't like.
    Barely. The Post-Crisis era has been what, 30+ years I think? And outside the marriage in the 90's what really progressed in Superman's life? Besides the gimmick of his death? There wasn't real change by and large for the most part, just the ever continual illusion of change - and real change is not a natural evolution in the decades long illusion of change.

    I'm looking forward to Superman Smashes the Klan, but we're talking about the impact of AUs.
    Which Smashes the Klan is, and hopefully it'll have a good and big impact.

    The impact of the dark AUs has permeated DC's choices for Superman for decades, including the kind of AUs the company continues to green light. While you may get equal numbers of dark and light AUs, how likely is it that any ideas from Yang's Klan book are going to make their way into the pop culture zeitgeist, particularly when it comes to Superman? Dark ideas from TDKR, Kingdom Come, and Injustice continue to shape pop culture perceptions of Superman in ways that the ideas from lighter ideas from AUs do not.
    I still think you are focused too much on the occasional odd story that tries to ape something from an AU. I really don't feel like it influences the character or his other stories that much or that often. Especially his solo titles. It's not like all Superman stories are of him murderizing the world. And not ever dark story is a reference to those AUs either, we just live in a time where many writers think dark means mature.
    And Injustice is hardly the only thing shaping pop culture perceptions of Superman these days - mostly it's just a thing for gamers.

    The effects of AUs transfer to the mainstream status quo. Superman was Superdad in AUs long before he was one in the comics. The AUs are where the seeds for status quo changes happen.
    Disagree - Chances are they'd have brung in Jon even if there'd never been a single AU ever. Writers have ideas, AUs aren't some testing ground for what to insert into canon one day. It's probably because the writer falsely assumed having him have a kid was the natural next step for him supported by storytelling. Blegh.


    Neither Earth One nor American Alien are light or even good Superman AUs. American Alien was written by a godawful person, too. I don't agree that there's a balance for the simple reason is that there's much more investment and attention paid to the dark than there is to the light. The dark tropes are the ones that are constantly repeated rather than the light ones. While I can point to one idea from All Star Superman that become a trope (e.g. comforting someone who is suicidal) and one of the three origins you mentioned permeating some other media (e.g. Birthright), entire plots and characterizations have been lifted from dark AUs and repurposed in new AUs or mainstream continuity. The conservative establishment figure in TDKR became the Boy Scout of the Post-Crisis. Kingdom Come spawned comic book spinoffs and is a concept that has been revisited several times since publication. Its most despicable legacy was the trope of Joker killing Lois Lane, which was revisited in Injustice. Injustice is practically its own subsidiary brand for DC. None of the light AUs have had that kind of impact. Maybe Yang's AU will launch a new age of stories of Superman as a crusader for diversity and tolerance in ways that speak to the social ills of today, but I'm not holding my breath.
    I never said Earth One was light, just that it was a heroic Superman AU (it is). It's also not dark either, just kind of middle of the road normal tone between light and dark. But in what way was American Alien not light? I totally disagree with you there. I also disagree with them not being good, but taste is subjective. I also don't care one bit if the writer of a story is a good or bad guy either.
    And again - are you sure the dark tropes you keep mentioning are always because of influence of the AUs and not just writers wanting to tell dark stories?
    Kinda disagree on the Boy Scout thing being from TDKR there. That Superman was a government lackey, and not a very good boy scout. I think the modern version of the "Boy Scout" Superman is just a flanderization of him being an all good by the book sort. The DCAU Superman was kind of a boy scout, and he was not like the Superman from the Dark Knight Returns. Like at all.
    So the most terrible influence of the Kingdom Come AU...only shows up in other AUs? That Joker killing Lois happened in another dark AU somehow is damaging to Superman, despite Lois being still alive and never once killed by Joker in regular continuity?
    Injustice is a game, most of the impact has been on the gaming community. Obviously no light AU is going to leave the same impact on them - because there hasn't been a light AU good Superman game yet. When there's been as many AU Superman games as there has been AU Superman books, then maybe that point would hold more water.

    I don't play games by the way.

    The bottom line is that if you look at the landscape of AU stories -- light and dark -- and you are absolutely honest about where DC places its energy and focus (i.e. What ideas have become more mainstream and popularized?), then it's obvious that the dark stories are the ones that have had more of an impact. It's Frank Miller, the author who wrote and influenced a lot of those darker tropes, who keeps getting to write Superman stories for DC. I am in no way suggesting there aren't any light stories that get attention and love from DC and its readers, but for some reason these stories just don't seem to become their own brand the way the dark ones do. And that's why Nelliebly and I believe the dark Superman AUs are more damaging than status quo changes like Superdad, especially when Superdad was initially an AU trope that was brought over to mainstream continuity at a time when the storytelling was there to support its inclusion.
    Again, not really. The Lego versions seen by kids, along with the cameos in Teen Titans Go, and Superhero Girls, the CW Supergirl show, and some of the DTV movies, tend more towards the lighter than darker takes, and has just as much if not greater impact on what is popular and mainstream. I really don't think it's anywhere near as skewed one way or the other here. I mean, it still seems like by and large most Superman stuff is still more the baseline superhero Superman.

  8. #143
    Extraordinary Member LoveStar's Avatar
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    Rafael Grampá posted on his IG:

    The Saga Continues... December 11th. @dccomics #DarkKnightReturns #DKRTheLastCrusade #Legacy



    Seems more and more this is a prelude to DK IV and Carrie, Lara, and Jon will be the new “Trinity” and focused on them.

  9. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoveStar View Post
    Rafael Grampá posted on his IG:

    Seems more and more this is a prelude to DK IV and Carrie, Lara, and Jon will be the new “Trinity” and focused on them.
    That's my feeling too. Frank has stated a couple of times he intends to write and illustrate Dark Knight 4, and yes I assume the story will involve some sort of passing-the-torch occurrence in the plot ... how dangerous Jon turns out remains to be seen

    Of the 5 books Frank is doing for DC, I suspect Dark Knight 4 will be the last. I think next year we'll probably see the Carrie Kelley book and the World War 2 story Frank's doing with Andy Kubert ...

    BTW thanks for sharing Rafael Grampa's IG post

  10. #145
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    I really feel that Jon being the first CANON child of Lois an Clark should be a big deal and special, but I guess not, according to DC...

  11. #146
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Putting exclusivity over a name doesn't add anything to how special or how not-special a concept is in-continuity, though. Its bragging rights at best, and would be highly suspect as even that because a "this is so special so it can't be used in any differing way in alternate tales" mindset is something not remotely applied for anyone or anything else.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-16-2019 at 11:19 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  12. #147
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    I think it's just a shame that DC and its writers couldn't be bothered to come up with names for Kal and Diana's children that aren't entirely tied to Kal and give Diana's identity some attention. It always feels like SM/WW stories are weighted towards Superman more than Wonder Woman; she gets a bit lost. And I would think, especially if this Jon favors his mother in terms of some sort of magical demigod powers, his name should speak to that maternal connection. In other words, I think the idea of something being special goes both ways. If I were a SM/WW shipper, I would want something unique for a high profile story like this because standing out is probably the only way these ephemeral experiments with the pairing will have any sort of legacy.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I think it's just a shame that DC and its writers couldn't be bothered to come up with names for Kal and Diana's children that aren't entirely tied to Kal and give Diana's identity some attention. It always feels like SM/WW stories are weighted towards Superman more than Wonder Woman; she gets a bit lost. And I would think, especially if this Jon favors his mother in terms of some sort of magical demigod powers, his name should speak to that maternal connection. In other words, I think the idea of something being special goes both ways. If I were a SM/WW shipper, I would want something unique for a high profile story like this because standing out is probably the only way these ephemeral experiments with the pairing will have any sort of legacy.
    Most of the kids they have are often unnamed because of the nature of AUs given that they are often one shots and not much thought is given after. So far the named children have been two Johnathans, a Lara and a Bruce. One could argue Lara given its origins in Greek and Russian, but Bruce seems to tie to them both given that he was both friends of theirs.

    There is another kid called hunter that I know isn't theirs but given how close this was to rebirth and his uncanny resemblance to superman which at the time had people placing bets that Clark was the father. I'm pretty sure he was going to be before rebirth happened.
    Last edited by ssupes; 09-16-2019 at 12:54 PM.

  14. #149
    Extraordinary Member LoveStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I think it's just a shame that DC and its writers couldn't be bothered to come up with names for Kal and Diana's children that aren't entirely tied to Kal and give Diana's identity some attention. It always feels like SM/WW stories are weighted towards Superman more than Wonder Woman; she gets a bit lost. And I would think, especially if this Jon favors his mother in terms of some sort of magical demigod powers, his name should speak to that maternal connection. In other words, I think the idea of something being special goes both ways. If I were a SM/WW shipper, I would want something unique for a high profile story like this because standing out is probably the only way these ephemeral experiments with the pairing will have any sort of legacy.
    In addition to the kid being magical based which leans more to Diana, Grampa posted this to his Instagram story a few months ago, teasing possible combination designs of Superman and Wonder Woman’s logo. So there is some distinction and uniqueness presented.


  15. #150
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoveStar View Post
    I see a license to print money from cosplayers and couples merchandise.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

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