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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    This is a story about an alien who shoots fire from his eyes. LOL. None of it makes sense. Wonder Woman having a child with Superman is just as ridiculous as Lois Lane having a child with him because this is all fantasy and trying to apply logic to it is ridiculous and, oddly, only ever seems to apply when itís to put Lois in her place. But ok then.
    You are two decades too late to wonder about whether this story makes sense.

    There is a whole verse created by Miller and so far 3 gns published. You can hate it all you like...Hell I don't like Injustice but I know that DC knows it has an audience. The fact is there are people willing to buy them and who have bought them. And from what I see from the responses on Miller's and Grampa's social media accounts...who seem very excited.

    Why are you wanting to compare Jon Kent to this child I have no idea on this thread since this book is not about Lois and Clark son. He does not exist here in this earth. He is still alive on the one you are invested in.

  2. #47
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Miller's decades past his prime. He doesn't have any real influence on anything anymore. But the idea that his ideas are bold, new or carry any of the influence that his 80's work does is a joke. His books are laughed at half the time now when they aren't outright offensive. He doesn't even seem to have original ideas anymore. He strings tropes together and stereotypes.

    He does still sell books to people. That much is true.

    And this is not an appreciation thread. People can criticize the book all they want.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I didn’t say that at all. But, yes, they can absolutely cause damage. Miles Morales is a great example of an AU that brought inclusivity to Spider-Man. That doesn’t mean that every attempt to tell an out of canon story has the same value or positive impact.

    Superman has, arguably, been negatively impacted long term by stories like Injustice Gods Among Us and I think you would be hard pressed to argue that he hasn’t been negatively impacted by Frank Miller. No one is saying you can’t like AU stories but they aren’t all good and they don’t all have the same positive impact that Miles does and has. As with all things, the story can be used to be inclusive or it can be a way to get misogyny through editorial. Many times, they are breeding grounds for racism, misogyny and overall crappy ideas that a writer can’t get pushed through in canon for a solid reason and so they go to an AU where, many times, they still get associated with a character long term and confuse the franchise. This isn’t even a controversial statement. It’s just fact.
    Just because there is a possibility something can turn out "bad" doesn't mean AUs should be off-limits. I for one am ecstatic editors will allow writers freedom to explore different concepts in an environment that is isolated so we can see what works and what doesn't.

    PS I actually enjoyed Injustice and the concept of an evil Sups driven mad by grief. The games were especially engaging and dynamic (and high sellers I might add).
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Its just a tagline. An oft used tagline at that. How often are things labeled as "Bold" or "New" when they really aren't? Pretty much all the time, for every new #1, every new relaunch, every new gimmick. Hell Bendis' upcoming story where Clark reveals his identity is being pegged as new. We all know its not, it just happened five years ago in fact. But who cares its just hype. It happens all the time, and that its done for a Miller comic as well is rather much ado about nothing.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  5. #50
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Oh, I know the marketing is all BS. They like to pretend that he's still relevant. I do find it obnoxious that he has seemingly gotten a pass for the disgusting Holy Terror and they pretend he didn't put that garbage out there. But the reality is Miller's modern work gets forgotten as soon as it's off the shelves more or less now. He coasted by on DKR's for decades when his actual output should have had him laughed out of comics 15 years ago. I just find the hyperbole about is "ideas" hilarious.

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    He's still relevant, that he can still move books is a testament to that, its just not so big that its going to set the world on fire. Again I go back to Bendis situation as a parallel. "Bendis is Coming" was never going to do what it might have done a decade prior. But he's still a name, and he can still move books even if he's not as automatic as he used to be. So you market it. If your expectations are a little much, its a little much. As far as his other works being forgotten about or whatever, I can't speak to, I paid little attention to those works. But DKR isn't, the more Super-focused revival is working and so long as its working and he wants to expand it, why the heck not.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-13-2019 at 07:36 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    What relevance does he have? He gets mixed reviews at best. Half of his output in the last two decades is looked at at some of the worst comics published in that time frame. People complain about nostalgia and that’s all he has going for him.

    Bendis is far more relevant than modern Miller.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    That he writes books and people still buy them. I mean people bring up the reviews and whatnot and that's fine but the reality is also that recent DKR-inspired books are selling. DKIII did, now Year One is. To say he's completely irrelevant is taking things a bunch of steps too far. Like I said his other works, maybe, I don't know. But its been revealed that this is still a niche for him. Yeah Bendis is more of a draw today, I didn't make the comparison to put the level on equal footing, I made it to show that they're not pretending anything as you claim, rather that they will hype up what they think/know will sell to some degree. With hyperbole yes but they wouldn't bother if it was completely without merit whatsover, if it would't make them some dough.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-13-2019 at 07:43 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    You are two decades too late to wonder about whether this story makes sense.

    There is a whole verse created by Miller and so far 3 gns published. You can hate it all you like...Hell I don't like Injustice but I know that DC knows it has an audience. The fact is there are people willing to buy them and who have bought them. And from what I see from the responses on Miller's and Grampa's social media accounts...who seem very excited.

    Why are you wanting to compare Jon Kent to this child I have no idea on this thread since this book is not about Lois and Clark son. He does not exist here in this earth. He is still alive on the one you are invested in.
    Literally no one here has disputed that some people buy Miller. It doesn’t change that the criticism that surrounds him remains. Just as you saw people “excited” on his Instagram, the dialogue and criticisms surrounding his notorious racism and misogyny exist as well.

    And the only reason anyone brought up the real Jon Kent is distinctly to highlight the hypocrisy that continues to surround Lois and everything she touches and does. It’s worth noting that when Lois has a child with her husband of decades, it “doesn’t make sense” and “Superman shouldn’t be a father” but, now, suddenly it’s cool. As Yoda said above, this isn’t an appreciation thread and we are allowed to both highlight the hypocrisy and critique.

    But you are right—-the real Jon Kent is alive and well on the canon earth. And as frustrated as I’ve been with some of the recent choices made with him, I’m so relieved and happy that he’s not associated with Frank Miller. I would genuinely hate for a marriage I love and their beloved son to in any way be associated with a joke like Frank Miller. So, thanks for the reminder that he’s not.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 09-13-2019 at 07:59 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    What relevance does he have? He gets mixed reviews at best. Half of his output in the last two decades is looked at at some of the worst comics published in that time frame. People complain about nostalgia and that’s all he has going for him.

    Bendis is far more relevant than modern Miller.
    I don’t like everything Bendis does but Bendis is generally well liked by other creators and respected as a person. Miller’s racism and misogyny has made it so associating with him now has a stigma.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member LoveStar's Avatar
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    From Rafael Grampaís IG:

    Iím proud to present my design for Jonathan (you will LOVE this kid!!!) and my redesign for Lara and Carrie Kelley (Batwoman). Iím in love with them. Carrie is the BEST in this book! Sensei FM was very generous and gave me total freedom to recreate their look.




    I really like the art! Love that Grampa was able to get free reign on designing/redesigning. Grampa is also a writer so itís possible he had a hand in scripting too. His Lara is beautiful. Jon is still a toddler (3 or 4 years old) but he already has a bit of swagger to himself and being like a little Buddha is very interesting.

  12. #57
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I wasn't even talking about sales. I know he sells. DKII sold and it's terrible. ASB&R sold and its even worse. DKIII sold well with Marvel level variant covers (200 for a 9 issue series), and one of the selling points was that he was writing it with someone else. I can also still find it in dollar bins near me.

    And yes, fundamentally I have a problem with him writing Superman at all. His output over the last decades has been a lot of gross, bigoted stuff. The way he writes women is terrible and it's embarrassing that it's being promoted in mainstream books. And beyond all that, his storytelling is just boring and lazy. Year One is a bunch of tropes strung together by the occasional threat of sexual violence. So yeah, seeing him praised as some creative genius for stealing Alan Moore & Neil Gaiman's ideas 30 years later is a little infuriating.

  13. #58
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I equate relevancy in large part to are people consuming the material. That's why I bring up sales, lots of people still buy and consume his stuff. Some like it, some hate it. I hate DKR I and II and ASBAR. Like DKIII, like Year One. That's me. Everyone else has their own feelings. But in regards to relevancy I believe there's still relevancy to his work because people still consume it. That's all I'm saying. You can hate it as much as you want to, I'm not trying to tell you otherwise. You can also hate that he even gets to write Superman all you want. But others feel differently and that should be and is fine too. There's no moral high ground here in regards to fandom and whether you like it or hate it.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  14. #59
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    There's definitely some moral high ground when we're talking about the guy behind Holy Terror. I'm sorry, that's just not the same as writing comics you like or dislike. Miller isn't controversial because he does things comic fans don't like, he's controversial because he's written some genuinely disgusting things.

  15. #60
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Such controversy is virtually non-existent in these past few works (you already know I vehemently disagree with you that they are), and those are the works I'm talking about. I respect that you feel the way you do about him and his stories. No way I'll tell anyone what they should or should not feel. All the same however it goes both ways and no one's in any position to do the same to me, and I will not nor ever will accept any shame or responsibility that I'm somehow doing something wrong by liking these particular stories. That's just not going to happen. I feel, and have defended many times over, that there are no hateful or controversial elements not befitting Superman within these, and I'll always feel that way. Past stuff is past stuff as far as I'm concerned. If they crop up again I'll take umbrage with it then. Until then I'll just continue to enjoy a couple out-of-continuity tales I find intriguing to follow.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-13-2019 at 09:09 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

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