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  1. #1
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Default Superman 5G discussion/theory crafting thread

    So, here's the thread where we can get into some 5G specific theory crafting regarding the Superman world. There's a lot of controversy surrounding this obviously, so I all I ask is that we keep the discussion productive. Like, just popping in to say "hope this whole thing fails"? Eh, probably not super productive. That isn't to say that there can't be detracting opinions or anything of the sort, no. This can also be a spot to talk about timeline stuff if anyone's down.

    Seriously people, it used to be a pretty good time coming on to theory craft and discuss this stuff not too long ago.

    I don't know about everyone else, and I'm sure the emotions run the spectrum, but I'm genuinely excited by the prospect of the unknown here, ya know? Like, if the rumors are true then this is a Superman not predetermined to have to go over any famous stories (not saying that I don't like that in concept on occasion mind you). We're seeing him and what he is unfold as we go. And in Clark's case, it's a genuinely new position (talking about President of Earth and no secret identity) that we're also seeing unfold.

    So, yeah, have at it and play nice.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 11-02-2019 at 09:55 PM.
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  2. #2
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    So you guys wanna see something kind of funny? Seems like in a recent interview Bendis kind of let slip the whole plan for Jon and basically no one noticed. Even funnier, it was a Legion of Superheroes interview from this very site.

    https://www.cbr.com/interview-brian-...es-millennium/

    "I got to tell you, I'm very proud; I actually first got to pitch this to [DC Comics Co-Publisher, Dan Didio] the first time we met each other just to see if we were going to do this. He was talking about something that he wanted and I mentioned, "I don't even know if the pieces line up with this, this, and this but if it's [Jon Kent] who gets to go, you still get your Superman book but you have Superboy teed up for a completely original journey as a hero that's different than his father's and then they have to deal with it as father and son too." That's unique and everyone got real excited about it."

    You noticed he said "you still get your Superman."? Over the past few months I've become more and more sure that Jon getting aged up was always going to happen because 5G and seems to have been in the works long before Bendis, but it actually seems like Bendis was the one who sort of finessed this into a Superboy and the Legion story. I think early on before Bendis the plan was likely to have Jon age to adulthood with no in between, and Bendis said something to the tune of "can I have an extend period with teen Jon before that for the Legion?"

    It also seems like he's trying to do an "Ultimate" take on the 5 Years Later version of the Legion by using Jon having to age to young adulthood. He's been calling all of the Legion members "freshmen" as a way to continue the overt college metaphor he has for the take, so 4 or 5 years latter is them and Jon "graduating". So Bendis likely has between next week (Legion issue #1) and the start of 5G to tell "freshmen" Legion/Superboy stories. For those not sold on some of the look for the Legion, this likely means new, young adult looks are on their way. So like say, Timberwolf might drop his "freshmen 15" and look a little trimmer. Stuff like that I imagine. Early on I remember Bendis very clearly stating that the looks we have seen for the Legion will be changing.

    Also, just from a craft standpoint, this means that we would've effectively gotten the longest origin story for a character that I've ever seen. That's all the way from Man of Steel issue 1 to 5G Superman issue #1. It's almost like the world's longest backdoor pilot. And to my knowledge, no other 5G hero that we know of is getting that sort of lead up. Just a thought.
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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    So you guys wanna see something kind of funny? Seems like in a recent interview Bendis kind of let slip the whole plan for Jon and basically no one noticed. Even funnier, it was a Legion of Superheroes interview from this very site.

    https://www.cbr.com/interview-brian-...es-millennium/

    "I got to tell you, I'm very proud; I actually first got to pitch this to [DC Comics Co-Publisher, Dan Didio] the first time we met each other just to see if we were going to do this. He was talking about something that he wanted and I mentioned, "I don't even know if the pieces line up with this, this, and this but if it's [Jon Kent] who gets to go, you still get your Superman book but you have Superboy teed up for a completely original journey as a hero that's different than his father's and then they have to deal with it as father and son too." That's unique and everyone got real excited about it."

    You noticed he said "you still get your Superman."? Over the past few months I've become more and more sure that Jon getting aged up was always going to happen because 5G and seems to have been in the works long before Bendis, but it actually seems like Bendis was the one who sort of finessed this into a Superboy and the Legion story. I think early on before Bendis the plan was likely to have Jon age to adulthood with no in between, and Bendis said something to the tune of "can I have an extend period with teen Jon before that for the Legion?"

    It also seems like he's trying to do an "Ultimate" take on the 5 Years Later version of the Legion by using Jon having to age to young adulthood. He's been calling all of the Legion members "freshmen" as a way to continue the overt college metaphor he has for the take, so 4 or 5 years latter is them and Jon "graduating". So Bendis likely has between next week (Legion issue #1) and the start of 5G to tell "freshmen" Legion/Superboy stories. For those not sold on some of the look for the Legion, this likely means new, young adult looks are on their way. So like say, Timberwolf might drop his "freshmen 15" and look a little trimmer. Stuff like that I imagine. Early on I remember Bendis very clearly stating that the looks we have seen for the Legion will be changing.

    Also, just from a craft standpoint, this means that we would've effectively gotten the longest origin story for a character that I've ever seen. That's all the way from Man of Steel issue 1 to 5G Superman issue #1. It's almost like the world's longest backdoor pilot. And to my knowledge, no other 5G hero that we know of is getting that sort of lead up. Just a thought.
    This seems promising. Something i pretty much have been theorising . If this was planned before bendis came on board. Then my intuition of jon becoming a new man of tomorrow in characterisation is very much not bogus theorey. I have even compared Clark's origin and jon's 'origin' before.

  4. #4
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    This seems promising. Something i pretty much have been theorising . If this was planned before bendis came on board. Then my intuition of jon becoming a new man of tomorrow in characterisation is very much not bogus theorey. I have even compared Clark's origin and jon's 'origin' before.
    To add to the comparisons (at least in a structural sense), Bendis has teed things up in such a way that 5G can hit, Jon comes back grown up, and he still wouldn't HAVE TO age up his Legion right then and there because of time travel. Similar to the Silver Age, the Legion would be set in the future, but also Jon's personal past. So theoretically a you could read about young adult Jon and teen Jon in the same line till Bendis feels like "graduating" them to what is most assuredly the Ultimate version of 5YL.

    That's another way to "you still get your Superman book but you have Superboy teed up for a completely original journey as a hero that's different than his father's and then they have to deal with it as father and son too." can be interpreted, and now thinking about it, I think it's even rather likely.
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  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    The use of Legion time travel also means that teen Jon can show up in the present day even after his adult self has returned too, because time travel is weird. We could end up with a DBZ Trunks situation, which could allow DC to thread the needle a little bit with the fandom. It'd be interesting if teen Jon was home between Legion visits enough to "sidekick" for his older self, and if used properly that could add an interesting new kind of fore-knowledge to Jon's arsenal; a new not-power for him to wield just as Clark's using his new not-power of politics. But I really don't think that will happen.

    Past that.....I dont know enough about 5G to really be able to theory craft. Jon as Superman 2, Clark as Earth Prez, Lois.....probably still writing articles, but she might move on to books (Bendis has her writing that big mysterious secret-spilling book after all, and the L&C mini had her writing investigative novels instead of news articles) or maybe even replacing Perry as the Planet's EiC, though I feel like she'd hate being behind a desk while everyone else does the work.

    Lex's future will depend on what's going down with Snyder's JL. I'd usually assume he'll return to form but that might not play for 5G. I think the stuff happening with STAR Labs might be setting that organization up for a heel turn, which would give Jon his own LexCorp while adding in the extra layers of betrayal and open the question of how heroes handle things when their biggest support group has gone evil.

    Leviathan will play a role....I'm just not sure what it'll be yet. I was thinking they might end up as DC's SHIELD or President Kent's secret service/intelligence organization but recent solicits have them working with Lex and his Legion of Doom so.....not sure how that'll play out. Leviathan might just be playing the villain role to get close to Lex or they might genuinely be cooperating with him, who knows?

    I expect a lot of Silver Age, cosmic ridiculousness from Jon's Superman, since Bendis has used him as a focal point for all that stuff. Lots of space politics.

    If Bendis is really pushing the DBZ parallels then we could see Zod's son become Jon's Vegeta. A team up between Jon, Damian, and Lor-Zod would be a lot of fun.

    I honestly don't know.
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  6. #6
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Past that.....I dont know enough about 5G to really be able to theory craft. Jon as Superman 2, Clark as Earth Prez, Lois.....probably still writing articles, but she might move on to books (Bendis has her writing that big mysterious secret-spilling book after all, and the L&C mini had her writing investigative novels instead of news articles) or maybe even replacing Perry as the Planet's EiC, though I feel like she'd hate being behind a desk while everyone else does the work.
    Wonder if we could get some cool stuff out of Lois being the legit First Lady of Earth? There's also the possibility that she's gonna be the one to blow the whistle on the time being what it is. Like, it seems to be something that only a few people know about. And I think one of them is the Invisible Mafia's boss, Leone. Remember, she has the OG green car in her hideout, and its been highlighted at least twice so far.

    Lex's future will depend on what's going down with Snyder's JL.
    Maybe an outed Leone becomes Jon's Lex (for lack of a better term)? Similar to post-crisis Lex, her thing is that she's more clever than standard genius, has deep connections, deep pockets, and now own the DP.

    Speaking of, what's that gonna be like for Clark? Leone owning a major news outlet while Clark is president of Earth and outed. That's potentially a very complicated fight right there.

    Leviathan will play a role
    Such a big question mark, right?! Given how much respect the have for Clark, and how they apparently think Jon is "amazing" I'm wondering if Jon might be one of the heroes who sees it Leviathan's way. I'm especially wondering that because of the clear time travel clues around Leviathan. It could form a nice ideological debate between our Supermen. BUt you're right, them on teaming up with Lex is so odd. Unless they're using Lex for their own means. I mean, they did something similar with Leone in the Leviathan Superman Special.

    I expect a lot of Silver Age, cosmic ridiculousness from Jon's Superman, since Bendis has used him as a focal point for all that stuff. Lots of space politics.
    He also says that he really likes giving Reis cosmic stuff to drawn, and I'm fairly sure that Reis is staying on the book long term.

    I honestly don't know.
    Dude, I know the idea of this isn't your jam, so it's genuinely, genuinely cool of you to pop in an give it an honest go. You're a quality guy, Ascended.
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  7. #7
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    So, is this something to look forward to as a superman and comicbook fan, or dread.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dralokonda View Post
    So, is this something to look forward to as a superman and comicbook fan, or dread.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member vasir12's Avatar
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    If we're going DBZ analogies, Jon is looking more and more like Gohan.

    I have no way of knowing but I think this whole "president of earth" thing is a stepping stone to leading the union of world's he helped make. Either that, or spending time to defend it. It would keep Clark off world while Jon takes it up as Superman.

    This being after the crisis which I fully believe won't be a reboot but more of a "revelation" of everything all the heroes did. Kinda like what happened when the two Clark's fused and merged their histories.

  10. #10
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Dude, I know the idea of this isn't your jam, so it's genuinely, genuinely cool of you to pop in an give it an honest go. You're a quality guy, Ascended.
    Thanks brother! Honestly I jumped in just to see what you and some of the usual suspects would come up with. Y'all are clever mo-fo's.

    And I'm all about 5G.....as long as it's not my *only* option. If that's the only thing DC offers me, yeah I'm not gonna be feeling it. But if I have more familiar books to read as well? Hell yeah, I'll check out some Batman Beyond/Terry McGuiness style Superman!
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  11. #11

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    Maybe Jon might be the Superman of the 31st century?

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Maybe Jon might be the Superman of the 31st century?
    that's pretty much what he is right now though? I think the idea is to age him up and have him in the present day in order to cause contreversy and get sales. Just having him be the superman of the 31st century isn't that dramatic and can be ignored.

  13. #13
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Few thoughts I've been kicking around

    - New Krypton - totally gonna be a thing. I was reading issue 5 of Event Leviathan the other day, and I realized that we may have gotten a 5G clue that we blew off as Leviathan being cheeky. He says "I know--I know there's no way on Earth or Krypton, you could see that today" when he's talking to Clark, and I assumed that the "or Krypton" part was just a joke to highlight how unlikely Clark is to see it Leviathan's way. But if he's from relatively soon in the future, then he could be speaking very literally, and Zod's New Krypton is established, and possibly even populated. But, like Kara said, how are they gonna populate it? If Zaar was created --as in using a lab--then maybe Zod uses that tech? There's the possibility of Kandor having survivors? There's also the possibility of a union between Daxam? If it's the Zaar thing (my guess right now), then I'm pretty sure Jax-Ur will help Zod. He seemed to know quite a bit about Zaar after he understood who he was, and he also seemed to know a bit more about what Jor-El did too.

    Whatever the case, I'm very sure New Krypton will be up and running by the time Jon is Superman in 5G. With the Zods and the Els being on pretty good terms, I think this leaves things open for a few new dynamics with the addition of a standing New Krypton. For one, Zod and Clark will be planetary leaders, and their interactions will be reflections of two planetary bodies. Jon, in a very unique position, gets to be a first generation Kryptonian Earthling visiting his roots. There are so many ways to play this that speak to a specific truth that's in the real world, so I really hope Bendis gets us there.

    - Jon/Conner rivalry - Bendis has been hyping up Jon and Conner meeting ever since Conner came back and Jon go to his first age up. We all kind of assumed that this meant that we were getting something Rockwellian in nature. But as time has gone on, and Bendis has repeatedly said to not expect it for a while, the build up has gone past "boy, that super hug is gonna be awesome" to something more. I think we're gonna get a pretty real ideological divide between Jon and Conner, and, well, it's gonna be a less directly antagonistic version of Superman/Lex. Not in the sense that Conner is evil and Jon is good, but rather, both have different ideas on how to save the world, and Conner may be more okay with letting his Luthor side help out.

    I think part of the idea here will be to still have the family get together in 5G, but now you get the half brothers that argue politics at the dinner table and maybe get into a scuffle before your dad has to break it up. I probably didn't articulate that as well as I could've been the idea is there, and I believe in it.


    -Jon's love life.- I've actually had several discussions with a number of people on here about this over PM, and with less than a week to go before Legion drops, I think it's safe to start talking about it because it'll be proven right or wrong relatively soon (not to say within the first issue mind you). So, I'm thinking there's a good chance that Jon isn't straight. There's actually a number of possible "clues" (one in issue 1 of Superman and another in issue 4), but the mainly likelihood comes from the fact that he's going to an overtly modern (in both design and likely sensibility) book set in the future. And chances are high that a more fluid take on sexuality may be the order of the day. Plus, Bendis recently tweeted this https://twitter.com/brianmbendis/sta...94855031345152 And also said that Ultra Boy would have a lot to do in the first arc. But maybe most telling of all is the fact that he said that he was fully braced for the "beating" he'd take for who he romantically paired in the Legion. I'm taking that to mean he's gonna explore romantic parings in the Legion in the spirit of the, frankly, sexually changed 70s, but in the context of 2019. Personally I'm pushing for a Jon/Brainy situation if we're bout this life.

    - Jon/Naomi - Okay take into context what I just presented, and then get super confused because quite a few signs are kind of narrativly "grooming" Naomi and Jon to have some sort of meaningful relationship/interaction. So, first off, Naomi is undeniably cut from the Superman narrative cloth. Both characters are, by Bendis' own words, examples of the text book hero's journey, and they run so very parallel with on another that's it's hard not to notice. In fact, the text itself seems to link them. In Action Comics 1014 when Naomi shows up over the skies of Metropolis, Lois wonders if it's Jon. Then in Action Comics 1016, Clark flat out says "for what it's worth my family went through something similar. First with me and then when my son was born." That's a textual verbalization of the parallels from Clark, to Jon, and then to Naomi.

    And I'm left scratching my head (based off what I assumed above) because this seems to be pulling the two towards one another narratively. Now, yes, there are other ways this can manifest itself outside of romance. Them being best friends is one, but Bendis has spent a whole issue getting us to understand that the Super Sons are still number one in each others' eyes. I don't see that changing, and building up Jon/Naomi narratively only for them to be just good friends seems rather flaccid. I doubt they're going to be antagonistic towards one another. Jon could simply be bi. Date Ultra Boy or whomever in future college, and find Naomi utterly captivating once he's back home. It's also just as likely that he's just straight. Hell, putting on my tin foil hat for a moment, this might be why Lighting Lad was changed? Such a diverse team having two athletically built straight white guys at the forefront?

    But, I'm not crazy, right? You see it narratively, right? Hell, Jon and Naomi are ever joining two different teams for young people after their respective hero's journeys (it'll even be on the same day ironically). Jon with the Legion, and Naomi with Young Justice.

    There's even a part in issue 1 where Naomi's friend Anabel jokes that Superman came back to say Naomi was cute and he wanted to ask her to prom. I think that could be read as foreshadowing?? And there's also precedent for this with Bendis. Luke and Jessica are one of Marvel's most successful and beloved couples like ever in the modern age, and they double as a very casual interracial couple. They're easily one of Bendis' crowning achievements. Making Jon and Naomi DC's Luke and Jessica may be the idea? I'm especially wondering this since apparently after season 2 of Naomi the team will play further installments by ear. That leaves her kind of floating or just in Young Justice. He guest staring regularly in books with Jon would make sense. It's actually how Jessica Jones stayed around and on the radar after her books were done.

    Just to clear, these are theories and in no way indicative of what DC will actually do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Thanks brother! Honestly I jumped in just to see what you and some of the usual suspects would come up with. Y'all are clever mo-fo's.

    And I'm all about 5G.....as long as it's not my *only* option. If that's the only thing DC offers me, yeah I'm not gonna be feeling it. But if I have more familiar books to read as well? Hell yeah, I'll check out some Batman Beyond/Terry McGuiness style Superman!
    I feel you, bro.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 11-04-2019 at 12:12 PM.
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  14. #14
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    So you guys wanna see something kind of funny? Seems like in a recent interview Bendis kind of let slip the whole plan for Jon and basically no one noticed. Even funnier, it was a Legion of Superheroes interview from this very site.

    https://www.cbr.com/interview-brian-...es-millennium/

    "I got to tell you, I'm very proud; I actually first got to pitch this to [DC Comics Co-Publisher, Dan Didio] the first time we met each other just to see if we were going to do this. He was talking about something that he wanted and I mentioned, "I don't even know if the pieces line up with this, this, and this but if it's [Jon Kent] who gets to go, you still get your Superman book but you have Superboy teed up for a completely original journey as a hero that's different than his father's and then they have to deal with it as father and son too." That's unique and everyone got real excited about it."

    You noticed he said "you still get your Superman."? Over the past few months I've become more and more sure that Jon getting aged up was always going to happen because 5G and seems to have been in the works long before Bendis, but it actually seems like Bendis was the one who sort of finessed this into a Superboy and the Legion story. I think early on before Bendis the plan was likely to have Jon age to adulthood with no in between, and Bendis said something to the tune of "can I have an extend period with teen Jon before that for the Legion?"

    It also seems like he's trying to do an "Ultimate" take on the 5 Years Later version of the Legion by using Jon having to age to young adulthood. He's been calling all of the Legion members "freshmen" as a way to continue the overt college metaphor he has for the take, so 4 or 5 years latter is them and Jon "graduating". So Bendis likely has between next week (Legion issue #1) and the start of 5G to tell "freshmen" Legion/Superboy stories. For those not sold on some of the look for the Legion, this likely means new, young adult looks are on their way. So like say, Timberwolf might drop his "freshmen 15" and look a little trimmer. Stuff like that I imagine. Early on I remember Bendis very clearly stating that the looks we have seen for the Legion will be changing.

    Also, just from a craft standpoint, this means that we would've effectively gotten the longest origin story for a character that I've ever seen. That's all the way from Man of Steel issue 1 to 5G Superman issue #1. It's almost like the world's longest backdoor pilot. And to my knowledge, no other 5G hero that we know of is getting that sort of lead up. Just a thought.
    I would still preferred if this was a new generation of Legionnaires following in the footsteps of the original Legion.
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  15. #15
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    -Jon Kent "Dark Phoenix Saga" - This was something that was kind of left over from Tomasi's run, and Bendis made a point to reference it at the very start of his run. Thematically, it seems like Jon got over this hump with Earth-3, the actual test could very well be him as Superman. Remember, he specifically says that it happens after he's already become Superman. We assumed that we'd have to get some possible future style story to go into that more, but now that Jon is actually becoming Superman and a time skip is getting more and more likely if not outright evident, this story just went up on the docket. And if Damian is Leviathan......

    The idea being that the prevent this from coming to pass.

    - Why does he eat so much? Okay, I'm not crazy, right? Bendis has Jon eating pretty regularly, right? At first I thought I was overthinking when I noticed it in issue 8 of Superman, but now after seeing him basically inhale two Olsen dogs with everything on them in issue 16, I'm starting to think that it's something with his biology. With Rogal Zaar being confirmed as at least partially Kryptonian, it's seems more likely that the parallels there (both regularly shown to be eating) are deliberate. Early on Bendis did say that Jon is a character who in a lot of ways has special needs, so it's possible that this may be part of it. I'm sure Legion will go into it more.

    - Young Justice time skip - I was worried about how Young Justice would work in the 5G environment. They're all teens, and they are part of a line about young people. I assumed that meant they were stuck as teens. But then occurred to me that they could very simply do what the show did: age our current team while also adding in new teen "freshmen" to keep it within Wonder Comics.

    Bendis has flat out said that he'd be taking inspiration from the show in interesting way, and they'd be adding new members in ways that people wouldn't expect. Adding in new young heroes, and aging out our current ones makes the most sense. I then heard that apparently the Bat books editorial has plans for Tim and Stephanie, and that pretty much sealed it for me.

    A lot of people hoping for Conner to grow up might get their wish.

    Side note: calling it right now, Cassie is pregnant, and Bendis made it a plot point knowing 5G would have a built in time skip for it. I'm telling you. I'm calling it now.
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