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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasil View Post
    In Pre-Crisis canon Superman married and fathered a son and daughter before arriving on Earth. It isn't a story people remember but it is part of that Superman's canonical history.

    Narrative impact and canon can change at a moment's notice. Reading Convergence Superman I never thought that Superman and his family would become the main versions but they did. The canon Jon Kent before that was a clone created with the DNA of Superman and Lois and had his own comic for a while. Now he never existed.

    IMO, everything from the character's history is up for grabs. Canon or not.

    I don't like Frank Miller writing Superman. IMO, he planted the seeds that destroyed the character but another Jon Kent in the Multiverse is no big deal.

    We don’t agree on this but I do appreciate you articulating your view and I definitely get your point about the changing canon. Thanks!

  2. #107
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Wrong. Superman Convergence was dated April 8, 2015 and was announced, with a photo of Lois pregnant mind you, several months before. In the winter. Now, we can get in a he said/she said battle about who had the idea first but the reality is that Jurgens and Tomasi beat Miller to the punch here and, at this point, Jon has been an established and popular character in the Superman books for more than 4 years running.

    It’s meaningless to argue Frank had the idea first because one, I’m pretty sure Jurgens would dispute that fact given what I know and, two, there is such a thing as common courtesy when someone just plain beats you to the punch. At this point, in 2019, Miller should have had the decency to just use a different name. It’s less confusing and it’s a hell of a lot more respectful to Jurgens, Tomasi and the entire Rebirth team.
    You said this:

    Jurgens’ Jon Kent was already in the books and important when Frank Miller decided to do this.
    It isn't true judging by the announcement I linked.

  3. #108
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Thanks.

    And given what we know about Golden Child...this been brewing a while. Bleeding Cool broke it a year ago when Miller announced it at a con in Europe. https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...-golden-child/

    If you look at Grampa's IG looks like he was meeting with Miller (and Azzarello ) before DK3 was published.
    I saw his IG. I recall Grampa met with Miller and Jim Lee not Azzarello.

  4. #109
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Wrong. Superman Convergence was dated April 8, 2015 and was announced, with a photo of Lois pregnant mind you, several months before. In the winter. Now, we can get in a he said/she said battle about who had the idea first but the reality is that Jurgens and Tomasi beat Miller to the punch here and, at this point, Jon has been an established and popular character in the Superman books for more than 4 years running.

    It’s meaningless to argue Frank had the idea first because one, I’m pretty sure Jurgens would dispute that fact given what I know and, two, there is such a thing as common courtesy when someone just plain beats you to the punch. At this point, in 2019, Miller should have had the decency to just use a different name. It’s less confusing and it’s a hell of a lot more respectful to Jurgens, Tomasi and the entire Rebirth team.
    Common courtesy for what?

    Using a first name name?

    The name was already used as pointed out by others. Decades ago under different verses. And Jonathan Elliot was Moore's kid. Jonathan Kent was earth 22.

    Jurgens does not own anything here. DC does. Ergo there is no common courtesy. And all this talk of popular? Sales is the biggest gauge for a concept to be deemed successful. Miller's books, whether you like them or not , have consistently sold well. Superman's sales have been shared every month here on the forum and it has shown it remains a middling property regardless what DC does. It does not matter whether he is married or single or a dad. The fandom is not monolithic. People have different tastes and expectations. You cannot judge all fandom.

    If DC can wipe out years of history to prop status quos or take Superman's history for Jon , I doubt they will quibble over a first name.

  5. #110
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Wasn't the Jonathan name DC's idea (not Jurgens') to make him more marketable or something? I think someone on the forum (Superlad93?) said he read that or am I misremembering?
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 09-15-2019 at 10:06 AM.

  6. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasil View Post
    Earth-two Superman is different to earth-one Superman and post-crisis Superman. He created the fake Clark Kent persona and acted like the real Clark Kent when he was Superman.

    Earth-one Superman is a different beast. He was Kal-El before he was Clark Kent, he grew up on Krypton and knew his parents. The identities he created weren't only fakes to keep a secret, they were different people occupying the same space. When Clark Kent's secret was exposed, the identity was abandoned because it meant he died. He didn't stop wearing the Superman costume and call himself Clark, because Clark was gone and Superman was left. After Superman kills Mxy, Superman kills himself and a new creation Jordan Elliot takes over.

    He named himself after Jor-El and his son after Jonathan because Superman and Clark were still important to him but he isn't them. Lois wasn't lying when she said she never saw Superman again. Jordan is not Superman pretending to be a normal person. He is a normal person that was born when Superman died. Lois does not call him Clark, or Kal or Superman in private because he isn't any of those people. He is Jordan Elliot.
    I know that earth one and earth two are different. But, clark kent is the identity given to him on earth. Kent is the surname of his adopted parents. So, no matter what he will always be a kent.

    Well talk about, contradicting behaviour. If clark kent/kal el and superman are dead then the guy "Jordan Elliot" wouldn't be giving his son the name jon or hiding an easter egg inside his name. If they were truly dead no part of his life will be affected by them. But, that isn't so jon has powers. And jordan elliot talks like clark kent/superman, walks like clark kent/superman, his mannerisms are like clark/superman and looks like clark kent/superman. So, he is clark kent/superman.This is like saying i would start being "lincoln". If i changed my name on a whim. No, i wouldn't. I would react automatically if my real name is called.

  7. #112
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    I saw his IG. I recall Grampa met with Miller and Jim Lee not Azzarello.
    There is a pic with him and Miller and Azz. Ah my bad was 2016 . DK3 was published in 2015.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BIlYgfPguSk/

    But an interview confirms DC asked them in 2013 to play with the DK verse ergo DK3.

    https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books-c...he-master-race

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    There is a pic with him and Miller and Azz. Ah my bad was 2016 . DK3 was published in 2015.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BIlYgfPguSk/
    Ah, ok.

    But an interview confirms DC asked them in 2013 to play with the DK verse ergo DK3.

    https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books-c...he-master-race
    I guess the pitch for Master Race is even "older" than I though.

  9. #114
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Seriously? That the kid's name is Jon just like the canon kid is a controversy here somehow? What in Rao's name does that matter? Why can't an AU reuse a name? Of all things to make into an issue, this is the least problematic of them all.

    Edit: And the kid's name has nothing to do with the Lois/WW debate! Aren't there shipping threads for that crap? Some AU version of "Jon" being WW's son takes nothing away from Lois, it's an AU!
    Last edited by Vakanai; 09-15-2019 at 10:34 AM.

  10. #115
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Ah, ok.



    I guess the pitch for Master Race is even "older" than I though.
    Oh yeah. Frank I read handpicked Grampa. Grampa's work as we discussed before on the smww thread has a bold kinetic feel, and way more refined than Miller's wild pencils, so would work for the verse the same way Kubert did.

    The concept of Jonathan as a floating Buddha must have been stewing in Frank's head a while. If I were a writer I would be so stoked to write a kid like him. The factor of magic means you can go wild.

  11. #116
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Seriously? That the kid's name is Jon just like the canon kid is a controversy here somehow? What in Rao's name does that matter? Why can't an AU reuse a name? Of all things to make into an issue, this is the least problematic of them all.

    Edit: And the kid's name has nothing to do with the Lois/WW debate! Aren't there shipping threads for that crap? Some AU version of "Jon" being WW's son takes nothing away from Lois, it's an AU!
    I agree!

    We've spent pages being derailed over a first name!

  12. #117
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Oh yeah. Frank I read handpicked Grampa. Grampa's work as we discussed before on the smww thread has a bold kinetic feel, and way more refined than Miller's wild pencils, so would work for the verse the same way Kubert did.

    The concept of Jonathan as a floating Buddha must have been stewing in Frank's head a while. If I were a writer I would be so stoked to write a kid like him. The factor of magic means you can go wild.
    Which disappointed/surprised me that Golden Child is only 48 pages considering how long it was in the works.

  13. #118
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Which disappointed/surprised me that Golden Child is only 48 pages considering how long it was in the works.
    Me too. Could at the very least have been a GN. But then that prob taken too long.

  14. #119
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Me too. Could at the very least have been a GN. But then that prob taken too long.
    Is Grampa so slow drawing?

  15. #120
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Seriously? That the kid's name is Jon just like the canon kid is a controversy here somehow? What in Rao's name does that matter? Why can't an AU reuse a name? Of all things to make into an issue, this is the least problematic of them all.

    Edit: And the kid's name has nothing to do with the Lois/WW debate! Aren't there shipping threads for that crap? Some AU version of "Jon" being WW's son takes nothing away from Lois, it's an AU!
    The easy answer is that it doesn't matter. At all. Feelings of ownership and exclusivity can crop up for many of reasons of which I won't blanket assume any individual here, everyone has their own reasons. But the reality is this: mainstream Jon is only the next in a line of quite a few "Jon Kents" spanning back decades, not all of them being carried by a Lois Lane, because the main feeling behind the name has always had the most to do with Clark and his love and adoration for his father, and that writers similarly have wanted to capture that. And of course in virtually all versions of the character, canon or alternate, Clark loves his Pa very, very much. That's why the mother has been sometimes interchangeable in that regard. Its not sexism at play, just a pragmatic look at the reason the name has cropped up so often in so many different iterations. Its far more a father/son thing than a husband/wife thing. It just is. Mainstream Jon is different from others of course in that this is a canon version, so some claim of ownership might want to be assumed amongst fandom, but the history simply shows it is not. Will that change in the future? Maybe. But still probably doubtful. Like others have said, Damian's popularity in canon hasn't stopped DC from allowing alternate tales to explore other avenues for different incarnations of the boy in regards to origin/parentage.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-15-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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