Page 7 of 14 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 210
  1. #91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    What are you talking about? We absolutely do know.

    Jonathan Kent was established as their son at the end of “Whatever Happened to the man of tomorrow?” —the official closing of the silver age era. It was an important story and established legit decades ago. The story actually goes into great detail as to why Clark rejects Lana as his partner and chooses to be with Lois. It’s extremely deliberate as it’s Superman coming to terms with the reality that though he loved Lana as a young boy that once Lois came into the picture that she was the one he wanted to spend his life with—-he just didn’t know what to do about it and struggled to find the guts to just tell her how he felt. It was deliberately Lois as the mother and not Lana for extremely specific reasons as the conclusion of an organic character arc coming to a close before the Crisis reset everything to start again.

    Either way, this is all superfluous. Jurgens’ Jon Kent was already in the books and important when Frank Miller decided to do this. In fact, I know from my own source that it was a point of contention when Miller chose the name distinctly because there were those in the office who felt it could be confusing and was a slight to Jurgens and, years later, we see why.

    DC shouldn’t have allowed him to use the same name and he should have had enough consideration for Jurgens and Tomasi (who absolutely were already knee deep in this when he did this) to choose a different name. It’s confusing at best to potential readers and downright insulting at worst. Women are not interchangeable entities but simply using the same name as the child who is already Lois’s son definitely suggests that DC and Miller thinks they are. And I blame DC for allowing it to happen. I expect nothing from Frank Miller. Miller is a misogynist who routinely treats female characters like garbage. Expecting him to change at this point is a wasted exercise. His treatment of women is well known and openly criticized. But DC Editorial is who keeps letting him do all this insulting stuff and, at this point, that’s the greater offense. Because they definitely know better at this point. They just don’t care. Which is nothing new. This is the same office who protected a literal sexual predator for like 20 years. Expecting them to have integrity is something I’ve long given up on.
    Look, i don't know why moore chose lois over lana in that story. It could have been random choice for all intents and purposes. Cause, frankly i don't see much difference in both ships pre-crisis. I never felt the intricacies you say they when reading those stories.i coukd be wrong. But, i don't know whether he adamant about lois being Clark's "the one".

    Jon is a name given to superman's son. It wouldn't matter if it was wonder woman or lana lang. It is only natural that Clark would ask the partner to name their son that. For all we know this is Jonathan prince kent or something.As for being confusing,i don't think so. This is the third or fourth version of jon. People get the idea that there different versions of a character.

    For example, if get married and have a daughter. I would most likely name my child after my aunt who adopted me. All i would need is partner's permission whomever they maybe. Here, the only contant is me pushing for naming my daughter like my aunt. Partner is a variable .Clark's case is similar. He would push for his child to be named jon regardless of the partner. That doesn't make woman interchangeable. It only make Clark's choices in life partners different. but, with a set of similar choices including "naming choices" that make clark, well clark.
    I am no expert on the misdeeds of the management or miller. So, i refuse to make comment on that.
    Clark even wears the same costume as other main earth superman. So ofcourse there are going to be choices that are similar in nature.

  2. #92
    Amazing Member Lasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    40

    Default

    More Frank Miller written Superman is the last thing I want but this thing about Jon is only a troubling if you don't know Superman's history. He's had dozens of kids with different women and the same name has been used more than once.
    Should Superman marry Lois Lane? That's almost like asking if we should ignore pollution, and power shortages... if we should deliberately bankrupt our nation... if the Republicans and Democrats should merge into one party. I think the answer should be: no! - Jerry Siegel

  3. #93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lasil View Post
    Clark died when his identity was outed. Superman died in the Fortress.

    Jordan Elliot isn't a disguise. It was who he had become.

    Jon Smith became Jon Kent. Jonathan Elliot never did.
    Jon Smith had Superman as a father. Jonathan Elliot didn't.
    Nope! Elliott is a identity he chose because he can't be kent. Jon Smith regained kent surname because of mxy shenanigans. Why kent specifically? Because kents is who they are. If the same thing happened in that world. Lois and clark will choose kent surname in that world too.
    As for not being superman, i thought clark kent was superman regardless of his powers. The reason his kid got powers.

  4. #94
    Amazing Member Lasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Nope! Elliott is a identity he chose because he can't be kent. Jon Smith regained kent surname because of mxy shenanigans. Why kent specifically? Because kents is who they are. If the same thing happened in that world. Lois and clark will choose kent surname in that world too.
    As for not being superman, i thought clark kent was superman regardless of his powers. The reason his kid got powers.
    The Earth-one Superman was different.

    Clark Kent was an identity he created. Once that identity was exposed he abandoned it because it became useless to him. After Superman killed Mxy, that identity was abandoned. Elliot was a new creation that had his own thoughts. He talked about Superman in the third person, because Superman was a different person to him. Clark Kent died and then Superman died.

    The "Kent is who I am" comes from the post-crisis character.

    Jon Smith was Jon Kent before he and his family moved to the Nu52 world.

    Jonathan Elliot was born to that name and family and he would live with that name and family. Jonathan was not a Kent or El because both of them had been dead for years before he was born.
    Should Superman marry Lois Lane? That's almost like asking if we should ignore pollution, and power shortages... if we should deliberately bankrupt our nation... if the Republicans and Democrats should merge into one party. I think the answer should be: no! - Jerry Siegel

  5. #95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lasil View Post
    The Earth-one Superman was different.

    Clark Kent was an identity he created. Once that identity was exposed he abandoned it because it became useless to him. After Superman killed Mxy, that identity was abandoned. Elliot was a new creation that had his own thoughts. He talked about Superman in the third person, because Superman was a different person to him. Clark Kent died and then Superman died.

    The "Kent is who I am" comes from the post-crisis character.

    Jon Smith was Jon Kent before he and his family moved to the Nu52 world.

    Jonathan Elliot was born to that name and family and he would live with that name and family. Jonathan was not a Kent or El because both of them had been dead for years before he was born.
    how so? Clark kent is the name given to him by his adopted parents(i know after the whole orphanage bit) . Otherwise, the name Jonathan wouldn't be important. But, still clark kent was still part of his identity.him addressing himself in third person. I took it as him being all "that was entire life time ago" kind of thing.

    I know how he has the whole clumsy "clark kent" act that he created. But, i am not talking about that. He was only forced to abandoned this persona. Real clark kent will always be part of his identity in a way Elliott wouldn't. Elliott is name of necessity like the clumsy "clark kent" persona.

    I am not talking about post crisis"kent is who i am, superman is just what i do" interpretation . Even in golden age, Clark came to know he was kal much later. I guess, this comes down to who or what do you mean by clark kent?clumsy persona is not clark. It is a disguise. The real clark kent is superman.

    Jon Elliott only lives that way because there is no other option. Therefore, it becomes a disguise like clumsy clark persona. If options are given clark would have given him jon kent name. Death of grandfather's does not mean anything. There are people who take the names to honor their legacy. This is like saying grandson of flash Gordon wouldn't be a Gordon because his grandparent had died.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-15-2019 at 07:48 AM.

  6. #96
    Amazing Member Lasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    how so? Clark kent is the name given to him by his adopted parents(i know after the whole orphanage bit) . Otherwise, the name Jonathan wouldn't be important. But, still clark kent was still part of his identity.him addressing himself in third person. I took it as him being all "that was entire life time ago" kind of thing.

    I know how he has the whole clumsy "clark kent" act that he created. But, i am not talking about that. He was only forced to abandoned this persona. Real clark kent will always be part of his identity in a way Elliott wouldn't. Elliott is name of necessity like the clumsy "clark kent" persona.

    I am not talking about post crisis"kent is who i am, superman is just what i do" interpretation . Even in golden age, Clark came to know he was kal much later. I guess, this comes down to who or what do you mean by clark kent?clumsy persona is not clark. It is a disguise. The real clark kent is superman.

    Jon Elliott only lives that way because there is no other option. Therefore, it becomes a disguise like clumsy clark persona. If options are given clark would have given him jon kent name. Death of grandfather's does not mean anything. There are people who take the names to honor their legacy. This is like saying grandson of flash Gordon wouldn't be a Gordon because his grandparent had died.
    Earth-two Superman is different to earth-one Superman and post-crisis Superman. He created the fake Clark Kent persona and acted like the real Clark Kent when he was Superman.

    Earth-one Superman is a different beast. He was Kal-El before he was Clark Kent, he grew up on Krypton and knew his parents. The identities he created weren't only fakes to keep a secret, they were different people occupying the same space. When Clark Kent's secret was exposed, the identity was abandoned because it meant he died. He didn't stop wearing the Superman costume and call himself Clark, because Clark was gone and Superman was left. After Superman kills Mxy, Superman kills himself and a new creation Jordan Elliot takes over.

    He named himself after Jor-El and his son after Jonathan because Superman and Clark were still important to him but he isn't them. Lois wasn't lying when she said she never saw Superman again. Jordan is not Superman pretending to be a normal person. He is a normal person that was born when Superman died. Lois does not call him Clark, or Kal or Superman in private because he isn't any of those people. He is Jordan Elliot.
    Should Superman marry Lois Lane? That's almost like asking if we should ignore pollution, and power shortages... if we should deliberately bankrupt our nation... if the Republicans and Democrats should merge into one party. I think the answer should be: no! - Jerry Siegel

  7. #97
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,252

    Default

    Looks cool, I'll check it out. I miss Miller's own art though.

    I just reread DKR for the first time in a long time. Man, that book is great. Maybe even more so in 2019.
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  8. #98
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    481

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lasil View Post
    More Frank Miller written Superman is the last thing I want but this thing about Jon is only a troubling if you don't know Superman's history. He's had dozens of kids with different women and the same name has been used more than once.
    He’s had one biological canon child and one adopted child. Lois Lane was his wife and the child’s mother both times. Clearly different than random AU’s or one offs. That’s like saying “Superman has been married lots of times over the years!” As if that’s the same as Lois and Clark being married for decades in canon and their marriage being central to the narrative. You are comparing random one offs with no real narrative impact to actual narrative with years of canon behind it now. Come on.

    I don’t think it’s remotely unreasonable to suggest that maybe Frank could have had a little respect and picked a different name this time out given that, yes, there already is a Jon Kent in canon in the DC Universe and he has a legitimate following and a completely different mother. Because again, women are not just interchangeable entities but crap like this suggests they are in the eyes of a lot of people.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 09-15-2019 at 09:32 AM.

  9. #99
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    There's nothing wrong with it. Its not the first time Jonathan has been used for an alternate version of Superman's son whose mother wasn't Lois. Earth-22 Superman and Wonder Woman had a son named Jonathan decades ago, for example. Its never been any sort of exclusive thing. I could see maybe considering avoiding the name and choosing something else if the character was being created right now (but even then I don't think its a big deal), but he was already established with the name Jonathan in DKIII. Too late to change it now even if they wanted to.


    Miller's Jonathan was introduced in 2015. His name was used back then. The Master Race was among the best selling books of those years. So the readers of the DK verse are very familiar with him. If Jurgens wanted exclusive dibs he should have said something but I doubt it works that way. I also have a feeling Miller had the name lined up before Jurgens given we know the sloppy way they pitched Jon without any real plan for him as revealed by Jurgens himself.

    Also this is not some great precedence. Remember Lyta? She was Diana and Steve's kid pre crisis. Then she was Steppenwolf's and Earth 2 Diana. I am sure there are evil Jon Kents around too maybe with different moms or origins. And there is a Damien in the Brave and Bold animated series who is Catwoman's and Batman's son, even we know he often is Talia/ Bats son.

    Diana conceived in 2001 in the DKSA. Also in 1999 there was Jonathan Kent 11 aka Hyperman in The Kingdom. So the idea of them having a child called Jonathan is expected I would say given the popularity of Kingdom Come . Also preflashpoint DC was adamant Clark could not conceive with humans given the alien dna was not compatible with human and Miller verse Clark says terrans are too fragile... I assume, to carry a Kryptonian baby would be dangerous.

    As with the name of Lara, being used for their first born daughter, Jonathan is a name Clark would name his first son as long as the partner was okay with it. It is simply Clark loves his Pa and Diana, in this case, knowing the good man Pa Kent was, would agree as a way to honor him. She does not have a father figure in her life either so I assume she would be fine with it. Wonder Woman has never been anti men like many of her sisters anyway. Her entire hx shows that she is open minded, loving person who does not judge anyone on their race or gender or religion etc . It's as someone pointed out...many people have names picked out long before they meet a partner.

    And didn't Moore have plans to have Clark and Diana marry in Twilight of Superheroes and have kids? And he was a big supporter of the concept of Hypertime as well. His proposal is there for all to read online. I doubt very much he of all people was rigid in thinking how stories should be.

  10. #100
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    10,390

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Miller's Jonathan was introduced in 2015. His name was used back then. The Master Race was among the best selling books of those years. So the readers of the DK verse are very familiar with him. If Jurgens wanted exclusive dibs he should have said something but I doubt it works that way. I also have a feeling Miller had the name lined up before Jurgens given we know the sloppy way they pitched Jon without any real plan for him as revealed by Jurgens himself.
    Master Race was announced in April 2015: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/0...urns-to-batman As stated by Azzarello in the announcement him and Miller were working on it already from 6 months. That's a lot of time before Convergence came out or was even written.
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 09-15-2019 at 09:38 AM.

  11. #101
    Mighty Member Deiasilva10's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    1,289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Miller's Jonathan was introduced in 2015. His name was used back then. The Master Race was among the best selling books of those years. So the readers of the DK verse are very familiar with him. If Jurgens wanted exclusive dibs he should have said something but I doubt it works that way. I also have a feeling Miller had the name lined up before Jurgens given we know the sloppy way they pitched Jon without any real plan for him as revealed by Jurgens himself.

    Also this is not some great precedence. Remember Lyta? She was Diana and Steve's kid pre crisis. Then she was Steppenwolf's and Earth 2 Diana. I am sure there are evil Jon Kents around too maybe with different moms or origins. And there is a Damien in the Brave and Bold animated series who is Catwoman's and Batman's son, even we know he often is Talia/ Bats son.

    Diana conceived in 2001 in the DKSA. Also in 1999 there was Jonathan Kent 11 aka Hyperman in The Kingdom. So the idea of them having a child called Jonathan is expected I would say given the popularity of Kingdom Come . Also preflashpoint DC was adamant Clark could not conceive with humans given the alien dna was not compatible with human and Miller verse Clark says terrans are too fragile... I assume, to carry a Kryptonian baby would be dangerous.

    As with the name of Lara, being used for their first born daughter, Jonathan is a name Clark would name his first son as long as the partner was okay with it. It is simply Clark loves his Pa and Diana, in this case, knowing the good man Pa Kent was, would agree as a way to honor him. She does not have a father figure in her life either so I assume she would be fine with it. Wonder Woman has never been anti men like many of her sisters anyway. Her entire hx shows that she is open minded, loving person who does not judge anyone on their race or gender or religion etc . It's as someone pointed out...many people have names picked out long before they meet a partner.

    And didn't Moore have plans to have Clark and Diana marry in Twilight of Superheroes and have kids? And he was a big supporter of the concept of Hypertime as well. His proposal is there for all to read online. I doubt very much he of all people was rigid in thinking how stories should be.
    Wonder Woman is here to show how men and women can be equal, she is not here to hate men. Moore had ideas for SM and WW married and with SM in love with her. It makes perfect sense for a son of SM to be named Jonathan and a daughter Lara or Martha, or, perhaps, as Diana's daughter, to be called Lyta, although we don't know what is Diana's relationship with her mother in the Millerverse

  12. #102
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    481

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Master Race was announced in April 2015: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/0...urns-to-batman Azzarello and Miller were working on it already from 6 months. That's a lot of time before Convergence came out or was even written.
    Wrong. Superman Convergence was dated April 8, 2015 and was announced, with a photo of Lois pregnant mind you, several months before. In the winter. Now, we can get in a he said/she said battle about who had the idea first but the reality is that Jurgens and Tomasi beat Miller to the punch here and, at this point, Jon has been an established and popular character in the Superman books for more than 4 years running.

    It’s meaningless to argue Frank had the idea first because one, I’m pretty sure Jurgens would dispute that fact given what I know and, two, there is such a thing as common courtesy when someone just plain beats you to the punch. At this point, in 2019, Miller should have had the decency to just use a different name. It’s less confusing and it’s a hell of a lot more respectful to Jurgens, Tomasi and the entire Rebirth team.

  13. #103
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Master Race was announced in April 2015: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/0...urns-to-batman Azzarello and Miller were working on it already from 6 months. That's a lot of time before Convergence came out or was even written.
    Thanks.

    And given what we know about Golden Child...this been brewing a while. Bleeding Cool broke it a year ago when Miller announced it at a con in Europe. https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...-golden-child/

    If you look at Grampa's IG looks like he was meeting with Miller (and Azzarello ) before DK3 was published.

  14. #104
    Amazing Member Lasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Heís had one biological canon child and one adopted child. Lois Lane was his wife and the childís mother both times. Clearly different than random AUís or one offs. Thatís like saying ďSuperman has been married lots of times over the years!Ē As if thatís the same as Lois and Clark being married for decades in canon and their marriage being central to the narrative. You are comparing random one offs with no real narrative impact to actual narrative with years of canon behind it now. Come on.

    I donít think itís remotely unreasonable to suggest that maybe Frank could have had a little respect and picked a different name this time out given that, yes, there already is a Jon Kent in canon in the DC Universe and he has a legitimate following and a completely different mother. Because again, women are not just interchangeable entities but crap like this suggests they are in the eyes of a lot of people.
    In Pre-Crisis canon Superman married and fathered a son and daughter before arriving on Earth. It isn't a story people remember but it is part of that Superman's canonical history.

    Narrative impact and canon can change at a moment's notice. Reading Convergence Superman I never thought that Superman and his family would become the main versions but they did. The canon Jon Kent before that was a clone created with the DNA of Superman and Lois and had his own comic for a while. Now he never existed.

    IMO, everything from the character's history is up for grabs. Canon or not.

    I don't like Frank Miller writing Superman. IMO, he planted the seeds that destroyed the character but another Jon Kent in the Multiverse is no big deal.
    Should Superman marry Lois Lane? That's almost like asking if we should ignore pollution, and power shortages... if we should deliberately bankrupt our nation... if the Republicans and Democrats should merge into one party. I think the answer should be: no! - Jerry Siegel

  15. #105
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    481

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deiasilva10 View Post
    Wonder Woman is here to show how men and women can be equal, she is not here to hate men. Moore had ideas for SM and WW married and with SM in love with her. It makes perfect sense for a son of SM to be named Jonathan and a daughter Lara or Martha, or, perhaps, as Diana's daughter, to be called Lyta, although we don't know what is Diana's relationship with her mother in the Millerverse
    Dismantling patriarchal norms has literally nothing to do with hating men and literally no one ever said that Wonder Woman hates men so it’s weird that that was your takeaway. But that’s not what patriarchy means at all.

    Also, Marston actually didn’t believe that men and women were equal. He actually believed in female supremacy and his grand daughter, Christy Marston, has been pretty vocal about he family’s displeasure and dislike of the Superman/WW pairing. Of course, so has the Siegel family with Laura Siegel coming out vehemently against it. Both the families are pretty clear that they view it as an abomination so best to not pull on ::that:: thread.

    Moore viewed Superman and WW as essentially dictators corrupted by power who had completely lost touch with humanity and weren’t the best people so I’m not sure you really want that as part of your argument either. He wasn’t drafting a great romance, he was writing a cynical story about absolute power corrupting absolutely. But ok.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •