View Poll Results: Should they change Magneto's race

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  • Yes: Make him Black

    38 20.43%
  • No: Keep him Jewish White

    148 79.57%
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  1. #211
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I can't say what the purpose of the changes would be if we're not talking about specific, concrete changes instead of the general idea of making changes at all.

    The Nick Fury example isn't really applicable since they were actually adapting an extant version of the character from the comics. I agree the whole Fury Jr. thing was a dumbass move, but it isn't the responsibility of the filmmakers to avoid certain material just in case the comics division decides to tie themselves into knots trying to line the comic version up with the movie.

    I don't think I see a issue of substance with the example of Iris West.

  2. #212
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    With Nick Fury the only reason they made him black in Ultimate Avengers was to try and get Sam Jackson to play him in a future film. They knew what they were doing with it. With Iris West they made her black in the show and there was news that a white actress was in the running to play her in the movie and people who accused Warner Brothers of whitewashing because they had no idea she’s white in the comics. This small but vocal group of complaints made the studio change the casting perimeters. When you change a character in an adaption, it does prove consequential for the character’s future.
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  3. #213
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    With Nick Fury the only reason they made him black in Ultimate Avengers was to try and get Sam Jackson to play him in a future film. They knew what they were doing with it.
    This is a willfully ahistorical position. Ultimate Fury was shown to be black from his first appearances in Ultimate Marvel Team-Up and X-Men, before he was modeled on Samuel L Jackson, which only started in the Ultimates. Nobody on the creative team have given any public indication that there was any reason they chose Jackson beyond the fact that they were fans.

  4. #214
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I can't say what the purpose of the changes would be if we're not talking about specific, concrete changes instead of the general idea of making changes at all.

    The Nick Fury example isn't really applicable since they were actually adapting an extant version of the character from the comics. I agree the whole Fury Jr. thing was a dumbass move, but it isn't the responsibility of the filmmakers to avoid certain material just in case the comics division decides to tie themselves into knots trying to line the comic version up with the movie.

    I don't think I see a issue of substance with the example of Iris West.
    Iris West>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michelle Jones

    Some people keep saying why does it matter. it does. when you change a lot you can ruin part of the characters impact from the comics.

    It is wrong that we don't have the most iconic love interest in marvel comics history.

    Iris West is still pretty much the same the only difference is she is a black girl on DC TV. I don't care what MCU says, the girl in Homecoming and FFH is not Mary Jane.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 09-14-2019 at 07:04 PM.

  5. #215
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    This is a willfully ahistorical position. Ultimate Fury was shown to be black from his first appearances in Ultimate Marvel Team-Up and X-Men, before he was modeled on Samuel L Jackson, which only started in the Ultimates. Nobody on the creative team have given any public indication that there was any reason they chose Jackson beyond the fact that they were fans.
    Well then guess I stand corrected though I could have sworn I read that. Either way it ended up that way and despite being an alternate universe, they got rid of the original Nick Fury in the main universe and replaced him with a version who looked like the Sam Jackson with the reasoning that the general public thinks that’s who he is.
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  6. #216
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Well then guess I stand corrected though I could have sworn I read that. Either way it ended up that way and despite being an alternate universe, they got rid of the original Nick Fury in the main universe and replaced him with a version who looked like the Sam Jackson with the reasoning that the general public thinks that’s who he is.
    Yes, I wasn't denying that. But that's the fault of the editorial staff and not the filmmakers.

  7. #217
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Well then guess I stand corrected though I could have sworn I read that. Either way it ended up that way and despite being an alternate universe, they got rid of the original Nick Fury in the main universe and replaced him with a version who looked like the Sam Jackson with the reasoning that the general public thinks thatís who he is.
    Full story was they used him as the model for Ultimates Nick Fury because Millar and Hitch were fans. What they didn't know was Sam was comic reader and saw his likeness and got his agent to call Marvel who to avoid any legal issues agreed if they used Nick in films Jackson got the role.

    The rest was film, cartoon, and comics synergy to have one version across the board in an attempt to lure in new fans.

  8. #218
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    I'd be okay with seeing Magneto and Xavier being non-whites. I do stand in the camp that I think that Magneto being a holocaust survivor should be a part of what motivates him, but I don't think he has to be white to play that role. Really Xavier could be anything, nothing in his background prevents this, the could even make the character a woman. My bigger concern is some one following Stewart and McKellan, specifically Stewart. I really did enjoy Fassbender and McAvoy's portrayals but they just didn't quite live up to their predecessors imho. Fassbender came close, especially in First Class with the bar scene.

    I try to think about it in terms of how I would feel if a studio race swapped my favorite character and how I would feel. My favorite character is Wolverine, and there is no reason that he necessarily has to be white. One could argue his place of birth makes it very likely he would be white, but it's a pretty weak argument at best. If I'm honest with myself I am willing to admit that I would be disappointed if they changed his ethnicity because I grew up with the version that I know and love. I would however not boycott a movie if this was to happen. I think the best example I can think of for a change to Wolverine is General Howlett from Extreme X-Men a few years back. They created a gay Wolverine that was in love with Hercules and the character was still a complete bad ass. It was a bit surprising when they first showed that detail, but it didn't make me like the book or character any more or any less so I kept reading and really loved the heck out of that series when it was all said and done.
    You brought back Wolverine

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  9. #219
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Except that no genocide IS the same, and claiming otherwise is dangerous and harmful. What happened in Rwanda is different from what happened in Cambodia, is different from what happened in China, which is different from what happened in the Soviet Union, which is different from what happened in Europe. THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
    I hate when people try to say that.You aren't trying to say these things are literally interchangeable. You are trying to tell a story with same elements in a different time. This happens all the in fictional literature when you put something in modern time, If you are telling story that had an outbreak of disease in middle ages today, You might use Ebola instead. For story purposes to keep the same motivation and elements you find things that SIMILAR so you can get a SIMILAR result. The story will cover the difference in the things and give the proper respect to the individual thing. Modernize stories use stand in for things all the time and stories use events with parallels to tell the same story all the time. The events AREN'T the same thing but they have commonalities being the same type of event and you will get the same motivations for the character. The Magnificent seven and Seven Samurai are the same dam story. Feudal era Japan and Old West are not interchangeable but tell similar story you change certain elements to make it work in a different time and place.

    Magneto is a fictional character, Nobody was you can't place Magneto in Marvel 1602 because it doesn't have the Holocaust, Nobody was like you can't take away his holocaust background in Ultimate Universe. Both of those things are reimaginings of a fictional story in a different time period. Tarantino has made Inglourious Basterds and Once a upon a time in Hollywood where he alters literally real history. And people are here acting like you can't change a fictional character history. Magneto is not Anne Frank who is real history and actual event is integrally to her story. Magneto is a character who history got added after the fact. The fact that they take repeatedly away his children in the fiction then add it back show that he is fictional and you can change elements of his story. Professor X is not veteran of Korean War anymore. Frank Castle is not a veteran of Vietnam anymore, Vietnam and Gulf/Middle Eastern wars aren't INTERCHANGEABLE but tell similar story in update time period to give similar motivations you use similar events. We are talking about fiction.

    To be clear I am not saying they should change Magneto, I am just saying because they might not be able to tell story exactly how it was comic form. If that is the case then you should explore all options. One option is extended his longevity because hey this is scifi and another option is modern retelling where his background might be different because mutants didn't exist yet in the MCU when holocaust happened. And to keep similar motivations for the character you give him a modern background that would give him similar movitions. I prefer Magneto with his original background it is strong story that been developed over time but I have no problem with a change if the story can't be told the same way.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-14-2019 at 10:36 PM.

  10. #220
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    With Nick Fury the only reason they made him black in Ultimate Avengers was to try and get Sam Jackson to play him in a future film. They knew what they were doing with it. With Iris West they made her black in the show and there was news that a white actress was in the running to play her in the movie and people who accused Warner Brothers of whitewashing because they had no idea she’s white in the comics. This small but vocal group of complaints made the studio change the casting perimeters. When you change a character in an adaption, it does prove consequential for the character’s future.
    Sounds like the problem was the fans, not the people making the comics and movies. (Shocking, isn't it?)
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  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Sounds like the problem was the fans, not the people making the comics and movies. (Shocking, isn't it?)
    It was not fans.
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  12. #222
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    Obviously MCU can do whatever they want as this would be a separate adaptation from the comics and there are more than a few different version of characters out there nowadays with comics, video games, tv shows etc all presenting similar yet slightly different versions of characters. What I do find inconsistent with magneto is that normally when a race change occurs people who defend or support the change typically say that it is ok because by changing the race of the character it does not impact that characters backstory or personality in anyway. That seemed to be what people said in regards to Johnny Storm, MJ, Flash Thompson, the majority of the eternals, Jimmy Olson, Perry White, Iris West, Heimdall, Nick Fury, Kingpin, deadshot, alicia masters, pete ross, electro and baron mordo. And to be honest I think most of those worked for that reason particularly in the case of Iris, mordo, Perry, Deadshot and Fury

    However with magneto where his background is informed by his race/ethnicicty, the argument changes to "well it's an alternate version" and therefore doesn't really matter all that much if it gets changed. Kinda seems like the goal posts keep moving in terms of what is or is not ok with this issue. If they wanted to cast a white south african woman as storm and said it was an "alternate Version" of the character, it would be completely opposed by the majority of the people who are supporting this change and they would make almost the exact opposite argument they are making now. Just kinda seems like the argument is that any minority/poc/female character is absolutely tied to their race/gender but any white character regardless of backstory is not and can be changed and even in the case that their race/ethnicity is important to who they are it can just be an "alternate version" of the character and therefore it's ok

    Adding diversity to stories is completely fine and I do think it's good marvel is making that effort but I really wish they would go with the Miles Morales route where he exists alongside Peter Parker as opposed to just changing the character for the sake of change. If the MCU really wants to present a more diverse version of the X-men, I hope they will just go the route of putting the focus and presenting a great version of characters like, Storm, Bishop, Monet, Sunfire and Darwin instead of just changing characters like Magneto and Prof X.
    Last edited by regg215; 09-15-2019 at 12:10 AM.
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  13. #223
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regg215 View Post
    If the MCU really wants to present a more diverse version of the X-men, I hope they will just go the route of putting the focus and presenting a great version of characters like, Storm, Bishop, Monet, Sunfire and Darwin instead of just changing characters like Magneto and Prof X.
    You say this as if that won't lead to same type of complaints "Why are they using these no names characters instead my classic favorites" they are pushing these characters forward for diversity. It is no win argument that leaves stuff without being diverse. Also every case is not the same thing a Magneto change is just a change to change for diversity ,People are strongly attached to Holocaust background they can't see Magneto without it. And pushing that comic character forward into MCU might impossible. Mutants origins might be a recent thing in the world post snap and if you can't tell tragic backstory of Magneto which people have come expect then tying him to a different tragedy might be option. Magneto is specific case of where you might not be able tell the most popular story so then other options now become viable.

    Every fictional character can be changed, I don't have a problem with Storm being changed to Samoan, Inuit or some south american tribe but that would be taking out character race that will not likely be replace or used in the main story. But then you will say you can the same for a Jewish character except that Kitty will probably be used. So in this specific scenario replacing Storm leads to no black characters until Bishop shows up.We know that and that is why we would complain. If they moved Synch, M, Darwin to forefront roles and change Storm race the complaints wouldn't be as loud. The Magneto case is a specific thing make it a general thing doesn't quite work. If people were talking about changing Kitty Pryde it would get same argument I would used for replacing Storm. You can tell Kitty story without any issues. Lets not pretend Magneto wouldn't 100 plus years and the MCU might not have mutants with the same set up. There is a why in this discussion about Magneto and outside elements why we are discussion change for minority character.

    Last yeah there is a generally a difference between some white characters and minorities in comics. Minorities characters a large amount of them as big thing race/culture is factor to the character story, It didn't take them years to flesh out a back story like Cap America being Irish,Batman being of Scottish descent or Magneto being Jewish. Most minorities characters were created for express purpose because they had no character around that look like them and they have heavily have culture and race as part of their story. Does anyone know what Cyclops racial/cultural background is? Jean? Iceman? Beast? Angel? On flip side what is Bishop or Storm racial/cultural background? Does Cyclops have stories dealing with his race? I can't think of one. Does Storm have specific stories about her race and its effect on her life? Yes. When you first meet Synch he is surrounded by cops and his race is factor to the story. The White X-men from other countries have their background and race touched upon in this way. But white american character tend to be generically vague with their background and culture making change an easy option. Magneto is not a case of that his race is very big component for character but once again this specific situation where that background can't be told and setting is different. One of the options because of that is maybe to use him as different minority background.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-15-2019 at 01:16 AM.

  14. #224
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Full story was they used him as the model for Ultimates Nick Fury because Millar and Hitch were fans. What they didn't know was Sam was comic reader and saw his likeness and got his agent to call Marvel who to avoid any legal issues agreed if they used Nick in films Jackson got the role.

    The rest was film, cartoon, and comics synergy to have one version across the board in an attempt to lure in new fans.
    Lure in new fans for sure. Spiderman TAS still used the classic Nick Fury, so did X-Men evolution. I would go as far as to say that when the Nick Fury from the movie model showed up in later cartoons, it was kind of distracting. All I could see was Sam L Jackson.

    Changing the race of some of the actors or trying to rewrite some aspect of xmen, because it works best for them, MCU is setting themselves up for the same traps they got into with Spiderman. It is not X-men that has to adapt to MCU style. this is why their Spiderman films don't work when you place them with the Sam Raimi classics.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 09-15-2019 at 02:03 AM.

  15. #225
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I hate when people try to say that.You aren't trying to say these things are literally interchangeable. You are trying to tell a story with same elements in a different time. This happens all the in fictional literature when you put something in modern time, If you are telling story that had an outbreak of disease in middle ages today, You might use Ebola instead. For story purposes to keep the same motivation and elements you find things that SIMILAR so you can get a SIMILAR result. The story will cover the difference in the things and give the proper respect to the individual thing. Modernize stories use stand in for things all the time and stories use events with parallels to tell the same story all the time. The events AREN'T the same thing but they have commonalities being the same type of event and you will get the same motivations for the character. The Magnificent seven and Seven Samurai are the same dam story. Feudal era Japan and Old West are not interchangeable but tell similar story you change certain elements to make it work in a different time and place.

    Magneto is a fictional character, Nobody was you can't place Magneto in Marvel 1602 because it doesn't have the Holocaust, Nobody was like you can't take away his holocaust background in Ultimate Universe. Both of those things are reimaginings of a fictional story in a different time period. Tarantino has made Inglourious Basterds and Once a upon a time in Hollywood where he alters literally real history. And people are here acting like you can't change a fictional character history. Magneto is not Anne Frank who is real history and actual event is integrally to her story. Magneto is a character who history got added after the fact. The fact that they take repeatedly away his children in the fiction then add it back show that he is fictional and you can change elements of his story. Professor X is not veteran of Korean War anymore. Frank Castle is not a veteran of Vietnam anymore, Vietnam and Gulf/Middle Eastern wars aren't INTERCHANGEABLE but tell similar story in update time period to give similar motivations you use similar events. We are talking about fiction.

    To be clear I am not saying they should change Magneto, I am just saying because they might not be able to tell story exactly how it was comic form. If that is the case then you should explore all options. One option is extended his longevity because hey this is scifi and another option is modern retelling where his background might be different because mutants didn't exist yet in the MCU when holocaust happened. And to keep similar motivations for the character you give him a modern background that would give him similar movitions. I prefer Magneto with his original background it is strong story that been developed over time but I have no problem with a change if the story can't be told the same way.
    Seven Samurai will always be the superior film.

    The same goes for Yojimbo and Last Man Standing. Last Man Standing has a great director/a great performance in the central role/a great soundtrack, and it is still a vastly lesser film.

    You are making on of the best arguments there is for not doing anything like this.

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