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  1. #76
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I've never understood this reasoning. Clark Kent is who he is, Superman what he does. But he grew up as Clark, it can't be a fake out or something to mingle with humans.

    Superman's Clark Kent, a good guy from Kansas, only with incredible powers.
    I'd have to agree. That thinking would maybe work for Pre-Crisis Superman on some level, but not modern era. "Metropolis Clark" may not be who he is (to borrow from SR a bit), but in his mind he's still Clark Kent.
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  2. #77
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I've never understood this reasoning. Clark Kent is who he is, Superman what he does. But he grew up as Clark, it can't be a fake out or something to mingle with humans.

    Superman's Clark Kent, a good guy from Kansas, only with incredible powers.
    Because it depends on his origin. There's really only one in which the above can apply. Because in most he finds out his heritage very early on, so Superman very much is NOT just what he does. He grows up as Clark but he also grows up knowing he's Kal-El of Krypton. That said I don't go so far as to say Clark is just a mask either. The lore evolved to the point long ago independent of continuity changes where life growing up as Clark Kent has a lot more development and meaning. Clark is not a fake out but Superman is not a disguise either. Current Superman's history is a complete mess right now of course but last we saw it falls in with the majority in this regard. As I said only one, the Byrne/Jurgens Superman, applies to descriptor you ascribed. Where early history skewed to the Superman side, post-Crisis history skewed toward the Clark side but its more balanced today. And I disagree the description works for the modern era, as the common details of the post-Crisis era went away officially after Infinite Crisis, in favor of more pre-Crisis, classic themes. Unless Bendis makes some drastic changes, it still doesn't apply in my view.

    But at the same time that's not entirely relevant to the particular question at hand. Is Clark Kent interchangeable? It depends on what you mean. In his heart he'll always be Clark just as much as he'll always be Kal. The soul is not interchangeable. So in that regard, no. But if we're just talking a public human guise to hide, in a situation in which his dual identity is outed, yeah, he could conceivably create something new. That would truly be a mask, in a way Clark and Kal-El/Superman are not. But if he had to he had to. And maybe he will in this current situation if he feels he needs that avenue to blend in from time to time again.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-17-2019 at 12:12 PM.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    The biggest problem with TRUTH was the fact that DC had done a very poor job of fleshing out Clark Kent's civilian life and his relationships beyond his relationships with Batman and WW. They did start to make strives just before TRUTH of giving New 52 Supes a stable status quo,then flushed it all down the drain. Revealing Clark's identity to the world is the type of story you only do when you have apples in the apple cart. The New 52 era had very few apples in said cart so when they tipped said cart,it became painfully clear it wasn't an actual story. It was a cheap stunt to shock with no real substance.

    At least this time ,Bendis (and Jurgens and Gleeson before him) did a very good job filling Supes apple cart and fleshing out who Superman and Clark Kent are in this era of the character. it doesn't mean the story itself is guaranteed to be good of course, but at least there is a very good chance there's actually a worthwhile story to tell here and not just an empty stunt. Time Will tell.
    I don't know. I think if you wanted to show the effects a coming out would have on the family, you'd want the family to be together, when Bendis has been constantly upending the status quo (or the apple cart to apply your metaphor). With Lois in Chicago and Jon mostly in the future and having absolutely no civilian life in Bendis's run, it seriously lessens the potential impact that something like this could have. Seeing the Tomasi family unit deal with such a bombshell (with Jon at school and Lois at the Planet), it would be very interesting. But that doesn't seem possible with the current set up.
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  4. #79
    Spectacular Member witchboy's Avatar
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    It occurred to me that the end result of this may lead to a period where Superman (and Lois) take on new identities when they realize what a huge mistake this is and they need to get back to some kind of normal life.
    Not a forever identity, but a couple of years maybe. And then they'll find some way to bring back Clark Kent, assuming it's not all just fixed with another Crisis.

  5. #80
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I've never understood this reasoning. Clark Kent is who he is, Superman what he does. But he grew up as Clark, it can't be a fake out or something to mingle with humans.

    Superman's Clark Kent, a good guy from Kansas, only with incredible powers.
    Superman is who he is. He's a refugee from a doomed world. He grew up, partly, as "Clark Kent" but he isn't some guy from Kansas. All of that is filtered through the lens of this alien being who was sent across a sea of stars.

    If Superman were outed as "Clark Kent", he'd drop that identity. He'd still call himself Clark to Lois maybe or Lana or whatever- but the actual mild mannered reporter Clark Kent would serve no more purpose. That's a disguise, a context for Superman to be able to be part of the world and not just some alien being in a Fortress. He would want that anonymity again, Superman loves anonymity. He never sticks around for applause or congratulations. He's a man of action, he does his job and flies away. He'd be "Johnny Clark" working for the Metropolis Fire Department or he'd be Jordan Elliot or Jon Olsen or whatever.

    He'd want to hide in plain sight all over again. Superman isnt going to sit in an office in the Daily Planet, and "Clark Kent's" journalistic integrity is kinda out the window when everyone finds out he writes about himself.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 09-17-2019 at 10:08 PM.
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  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Superman is who he is. He's a refugee from a doomed world. He grew up, partly, as "Clark Kent" but he isn't some guy from Kansas. All of that is filtered through the lens of this alien being who was sent across a sea of stars.

    If Superman were outed as "Clark Kent", he'd drop that identity. He'd still call himself Clark to Lois maybe or Lana or whatever- but the actual mild mannered reporter Clark Kent would serve no more purpose. That's a disguise, a context for Superman to be able to be part of the world and not just some alien being in a Fortress. He would want that anonymity again, Superman loves anonymity. He never sticks around for applause or congratulations. He's a man of action, he does his job and flies away. He'd be "Johnny Clark" working for the Metropolis Fire Department or he'd be Jordan Elliot or Jon Olsen or whatever.

    He'd want to hide in plain sight all over again. Superman isnt going to sit in an office in the Daily Planet, and "Clark Kent's" journalistic integrity is kinda out the window when everyone finds out he writes about himself.
    I disagree vehemently.

    For me Superman is not Kal-El or some weird Clark-El. he is Clark Kent, but discovered his origins aren't what he believed. But like every babe adopted at a very young age, his memory are of his life as a human, his parents are Jonathan and Martha Kent. Sure, he knows who Jor-El is, but he shouldn't have actual paternal connections to him. Jor-El is his genetic father, not his dad.

    I honestly really hate the idea that his human persona would be just a façade, it would really make the character despicable to me.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I've never understood this reasoning. Clark Kent is who he is, Superman what he does. But he grew up as Clark, it can't be a fake out or something to mingle with humans.

    Superman's Clark Kent, a good guy from Kansas, only with incredible powers.
    I've said before this is all semantics. Whether he calls his true self "Clark", "Superman" or "Kal-El" isn't the point. Most people mean "Metropolis Clark" when they ask about whether he is really Clark. The guy raised by Jonathan and Martha is not who 99%+ think of when asked about Clark Kent, it's the guy everyone else in Smallville knew.

    Clark is the guy everyone on the Planet staff interact with, not the guy who fought Doomsday. He's the guy Perry hired, not the costumeless guy who flew up to rescue the shuttle. That guy may refer to himself as Clark, but he isn't the guy everyone else means by the term.

  8. #83
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I disagree vehemently.

    For me Superman is not Kal-El or some weird Clark-El. he is Clark Kent, but discovered his origins aren't what he believed. But like every babe adopted at a very young age, his memory are of his life as a human, his parents are Jonathan and Martha Kent. Sure, he knows who Jor-El is, but he shouldn't have actual paternal connections to him. Jor-El is his genetic father, not his dad.

    I honestly really hate the idea that his human persona would be just a façade, it would really make the character despicable to me.
    This is strange to me because discovering he's Kal-El isn't something small about his character, it's an entire side of him that is very important to his development. It doesn't invalidate Clark, but... Well, think of it as how someone discovers their sexuality. He suddenly learned something about himself that made a lot of things in his past click and that re-contextualizing of his life is going to continue for the rest of it. He was Kal-El when the Kents found him and still is, just like he's Clark Kent from the minute Jonathan and Martha tell him about the rocket until today. It's not like they told him about the rocket and he never used the powers, wore the cape, built the Fortress of Solitude or studied Jor-El's recordings and artifacts. Clark is very much a man of two worlds. Moreover, he loves and respects his Kryptonian parents too. He's seen the recordings, he understands what they did for him and, quite frankly, they gave him a chance at the wonderful life he's lived. You can say that to you this isn't true, but that's ignoring that we actually see this happen on-panel and have done so for, what, eighty years? Him thinking of his Kryptnonian heritage flippantly was only really a thing in Byrne's early work and some adaptions.

    For what it's worth, I weigh more on nurture than nature myself. I would agree he sees himself as Clark Kent first, but to say Clark isn't Kal-El is really just throwing the baby out with the bath water.
    Last edited by Robanker; 09-18-2019 at 12:35 AM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I disagree vehemently.

    For me Superman is not Kal-El or some weird Clark-El. he is Clark Kent, but discovered his origins aren't what he believed. But like every babe adopted at a very young age, his memory are of his life as a human, his parents are Jonathan and Martha Kent. Sure, he knows who Jor-El is, but he shouldn't have actual paternal connections to him. Jor-El is his genetic father, not his dad.

    I honestly really hate the idea that his human persona would be just a façade, it would really make the character despicable to me.
    I dislike the idea that the character being thought of as a regular Joe. I can't accept the idea that the guy who hides more of his true self is considered the "real person". His true self flies, is bulletproof, and can bend steel in his bare hands. Any version of him who hides that light under a bushel is hiding his true nature (regardless of the reason he does it).
    Last edited by Jon Clark; 09-18-2019 at 12:48 AM.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Superman is who he is. He's a refugee from a doomed world. He grew up, partly, as "Clark Kent" but he isn't some guy from Kansas. All of that is filtered through the lens of this alien being who was sent across a sea of stars.

    If Superman were outed as "Clark Kent", he'd drop that identity. He'd still call himself Clark to Lois maybe or Lana or whatever- but the actual mild mannered reporter Clark Kent would serve no more purpose. That's a disguise, a context for Superman to be able to be part of the world and not just some alien being in a Fortress. He would want that anonymity again, Superman loves anonymity. He never sticks around for applause or congratulations. He's a man of action, he does his job and flies away. He'd be "Johnny Clark" working for the Metropolis Fire Department or he'd be Jordan Elliot or Jon Olsen or whatever.

    He'd want to hide in plain sight all over again. Superman isnt going to sit in an office in the Daily Planet, and "Clark Kent's" journalistic integrity is kinda out the window when everyone finds out he writes about himself.
    But, that superman is clark, originally. Its the name given to him by the people.
    Him stopping a clumsy act doesn't make him not clark. Clark is the name given to him by his adopted parents(mary and john, who later got retconned like the motorbike guy/orphanage ) . It is cultural identity he was given. If you go by golden age the real clark kent without the act, is who he is. Who is also called by the people as "superman". So, real clark kent is superman. he got to know he was kal l, later.he learned what is the name of the part that felt like an outsider, which he never knew. Here, kal l is a part of or subset of the real clark kent/superman identity. Because he learned of kal l only through the real clark kent/superman.

    If you go by silverage, kal el is who he is. Because he remembers his world, culture and parents . Who is also called by people as superman . but, "clark kent" is part of his integration into "America" and his American identity due to his love for parents. He later created fake clumsy persona like in golden age, which is as called " clark kent". Whom i will call fake "clark kent".(note this fake clark kent persona is constant in both silverage and golden age) here, clark kent is a subset of his kal el/superman identity. Here, he can get rid of the fake persona. Inside, he will always be kal el/superman a kryptonIan immigrant to America.

    Post crisis it is the other way, clark was born on earth. He is clark kent of earth. His name was only an intention of his biological parents who sent only the ingredients needed for the creation of clark kent. he also lived as a mortal for years. This clark kent chose to do good because of his upbringing when his powers showed up. He learned of his alien genetics and his intented name "kal el'. Which he first rejected. Then came to cope with.Here there was no clumsy act,unlike in golden age and silverage . Clark kent was himself and did not feel the need to get rid of his agency for a disguise(post crisis dcu is full of idiots for not figuring it out). The explanation was hiding in plain sight. Clark kent was nerdish,jock, naive,smart and intelligent.people began to call what he does as "superman" .

    This is my interpretation. I could be wrong. Ultimately, i think clark/superman/kal el is confusing/confused individual. He himself would shrug in a "beats me" manner if asked who he is? On, top of that he puts on the act and creates a clumsy persona in many versions. pick your poison. But, the constant is people/lois(in post crisis) calls the all encompassing identity that is real clark kent(in golden age and post crisis) or kal el(in silverage) "superman" . So, we can say, people calling "the guy in the red underoos with giant s on his chest" is the only real fact of his identity in the mythos.

  11. #86
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I disagree vehemently.

    For me Superman is not Kal-El or some weird Clark-El. he is Clark Kent, but discovered his origins aren't what he believed. But like every babe adopted at a very young age, his memory are of his life as a human, his parents are Jonathan and Martha Kent. Sure, he knows who Jor-El is, but he shouldn't have actual paternal connections to him. Jor-El is his genetic father, not his dad.

    I honestly really hate the idea that his human persona would be just a façade, it would really make the character despicable to me.
    Yeah, I have no interest in reading about some average Joe who happens to have alien powers. That's not Superman. That's a million other characters.

    The human persona is entirely a facade, but it's a strong one that's oddly enough helped him to connect with others and live a bit of a life. Of course he's "Clark Kent" inasmuch as he grew up under that guise, but those 18 years are not the be all end all for the character. Adults grow and mature and change. He's not a farmboy.
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  12. #87
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Yeah, I have no interest in reading about some average Joe who happens to have alien powers. That's not Superman. That's a million other characters.

    The human persona is entirely a facade, but it's a strong one that's oddly enough helped him to connect with others and live a bit of a life. Of course he's "Clark Kent" inasmuch as he grew up under that guise, but those 18 years are not the be all end all for the character. Adults grow and mature and change. He's not a farmboy.
    What do you mean by human persona? I hate the notion that Clark's "clumsy clark" act is somehow him acting like a "human" .i never read anything that suggests that. The persona was strictly for privacy and not to let his secret out. It was clark just playing the village idiots so that he can help as himself. Otherwise,from your reading of superman. i only get an arrogant asshole who is playing parody. When he should be looking into a mirror and taking good look at himself/his so called greatness .

    Clark kent(golden age and post crisis) or kal el(silverage) who was called " superman" by earth people later is not human. He is an alien. But, he is very much an American. His culture is american(or atleast assimilated to in silverage ) .first language as well as his mother tongue is english(not in silverage) . His perspective of history is that from an American wether he is a leftist, libertarian, Conservative or a Liberal(more kryptonIan in silverage) . The first, eighteen years you generously trivialised created both superboy and later on influenced superman . Without it there is no superman or superboy. He was a farmboy.farming will always be what his forefathers did(yeah!being adopted does make kent family legacy his). There ain't nothing wrong with that. The only reason you have a problem is because of certain stereotypes. Those eighteen years was not a guise. It is his childhood that shaped who he is and his conviction .the conviction to fight for those who can't fight for themselves. convictions, character and sheer power that caused people to call him superman.

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    Historically Clark Kent was mainly a tool Superman used to gather and disseminate information. Superman was a tool he used to go after people who preyed on the weak. At it's core Superman is suppose to be a story about a man who uses his various skills and abilities to fight evil. It would stand to reason that if his Clark Kent persona ever became radioactive but his work as a reporter was still necessary to the never ending battle against evil he'd just construct a new one given the important nature of the press.

    However with modern writing increasingly scaling back what issues and topics Superman is allowed to wade into the reporter aspect has basically become a literary vestigial limb. There was such an outcry when he quit the daily planet but since coming back to it I think the lads done even less meaningful reporting than when he was on the outs with the Daily Planet. Being a reporter and working at the Daily Planet have become accent pieces in the Superman franchise, things that readers can point to when they want to make speeches to affirm Superman's humanity but if you look just a bit more closely you can see the disrepair and lack of real purpose those items have anymore.

    First and foremost being a reporter is a tool in Superman's tool belt, the same as heat vision, and superspeed; it's there to accomplish a particular job and must be treated like that. In the Golden Age rarely did a story go by where Superman didn't do some kind of reporting.
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  14. #89
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I disagree vehemently.

    For me Superman is not Kal-El or some weird Clark-El. he is Clark Kent, but discovered his origins aren't what he believed. But like every babe adopted at a very young age, his memory are of his life as a human, his parents are Jonathan and Martha Kent. Sure, he knows who Jor-El is, but he shouldn't have actual paternal connections to him. Jor-El is his genetic father, not his dad.

    I honestly really hate the idea that his human persona would be just a façade, it would really make the character despicable to me.
    I can agree with most of this, except the "shouldn't have actual paternal connections to Jor-El" part. Sure, they wouldn't be as strong because they'd be secondary and learned/built over time - but they'd be there.

    But the rest I'm totally on board with. Not that he couldn't "construct" another identity if he "had to," but that Clark isn't just any identity, it's probably the largest part of his "self-identity" (at least in most modern interpretations) - and that makes all the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    But, that superman is clark, originally. Its the name given to him by the people.
    Him stopping a clumsy act doesn't make him not clark. Clark is the name given to him by his adopted parents(mary and john, who later got retconned like the motorbike guy/orphanage ) . It is cultural identity he was given. If you go by golden age the real clark kent without the act, is who he is. Who is also called by the people as "superman". So, real clark kent is superman. he got to know he was kal l, later.he learned what is the name of the part that felt like an outsider, which he never knew. Here, kal l is a part of or subset of the real clark kent/superman identity. Because he learned of kal l only through the real clark kent/superman.

    If you go by silverage, kal el is who he is. Because he remembers his world, culture and parents . Who is also called by people as superman . but, "clark kent" is part of his integration into "America" and his American identity due to his love for parents. He later created fake clumsy persona like in golden age, which is as called " clark kent". Whom i will call fake "clark kent".(note this fake clark kent persona is constant in both silverage and golden age) here, clark kent is a subset of his kal el/superman identity. Here, he can get rid of the fake persona. Inside, he will always be kal el/superman a kryptonIan immigrant to America.

    Post crisis it is the other way, clark was born on earth. He is clark kent of earth. His name was only an intention of his biological parents who sent only the ingredients needed for the creation of clark kent. he also lived as a mortal for years. This clark kent chose to do good because of his upbringing when his powers showed up. He learned of his alien genetics and his intented name "kal el'. Which he first rejected. Then came to cope with.Here there was no clumsy act,unlike in golden age and silverage . Clark kent was himself and did not feel the need to get rid of his agency for a disguise(post crisis dcu is full of idiots for not figuring it out). The explanation was hiding in plain sight. Clark kent was nerdish,jock, naive,smart and intelligent.people began to call what he does as "superman" .

    This is my interpretation. I could be wrong. Ultimately, i think clark/superman/kal el is confusing/confused individual. He himself would shrug in a "beats me" manner if asked who he is? On, top of that he puts on the act and creates a clumsy persona in many versions. pick your poison. But, the constant is people/lois(in post crisis) calls the all encompassing identity that is real clark kent(in golden age and post crisis) or kal el(in silverage) "superman" . So, we can say, people calling "the guy in the red underoos with giant s on his chest" is the only real fact of his identity in the mythos.
    This is all VERY well said, and is a pretty good breakdown of the respective differentiations! I don't think he'd say "beats me," though. It's just complicated. There's who he "is" in his own mind first, and then parts of himself that he's grown into over time. I think that's how he'd answer - and that answer would have various differences depending on which version you ask (via your descriptions above).

    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Historically Clark Kent was mainly a tool Superman used to gather and disseminate information. Superman was a tool he used to go after people who preyed on the weak. At it's core Superman is suppose to be a story about a man who uses his various skills and abilities to fight evil. It would stand to reason that if his Clark Kent persona ever became radioactive but his work as a reporter was still necessary to the never ending battle against evil he'd just construct a new one given the important nature of the press.

    However with modern writing increasingly scaling back what issues and topics Superman is allowed to wade into the reporter aspect has basically become a literary vestigial limb. There was such an outcry when he quit the daily planet but since coming back to it I think the lads done even less meaningful reporting than when he was on the outs with the Daily Planet. Being a reporter and working at the Daily Planet have become accent pieces in the Superman franchise, things that readers can point to when they want to make speeches to affirm Superman's humanity but if you look just a bit more closely you can see the disrepair and lack of real purpose those items have anymore.

    First and foremost being a reporter is a tool in Superman's tool belt, the same as heat vision, and superspeed; it's there to accomplish a particular job and must be treated like that. In the Golden Age rarely did a story go by where Superman didn't do some kind of reporting.
    I'd say that's a problem with the writing, then. Bendis has gone to some length to portray Clark as a good reporter, but hasn't yet shown him in action as much as he could. I was hoping that would change, as the late 80's early 90's did (it seemed like that was where he was going), but looks like it won't, now. Which is a shame.

    The mythos has a lot of facets, and it'd be nice to see a writer utilize more of them effectively.. but that they haven't done so isn't a reason to cut them out, imo.
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  15. #90
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    So Bendis "randomly" tweeted out this a few days ago. I say "randomly" because it's very clearly not random.

    Given the nature of the gif, I think it's becoming fairly clear that there's less ambiguity to the solicits.

    https://twitter.com/BRIANMBENDIS/sta...68417708748800

    He also posted this around the time the solicits went live.

    https://twitter.com/BRIANMBENDIS/sta...35995348463616
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