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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Yeah, the Fantastic Four started to die way back when the X-Men started to rise. And that death spiral massively accelerated once Byrne left. The Fantastic Four hasn't been an important property since decades before the Fox/Disney feud.
    Yeah, as much as I respect how the Fantastic Four was Marvel's first modern superhero comic, I've never really that been particularly interested in it aside from the mid-80s comics with She-Hulk in them.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Yeah, as much as I respect how the Fantastic Four was Marvel's first modern superhero comic, I've never really that been particularly interested in it aside from the mid-80s comics with She-Hulk in them.
    The recent return was the first time they promoted them in years. They never really cared to before.
    Get the INVISIBLE WOMAN mini OUT NOW!


    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

  3. #18
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    The Fantastic Four's only really boon post-Lee/Kirby and pre-now was Brevoort loving them the most and at least making sure the books were good to great.

  4. #19
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I've been hearing people hoping Marvel rolls back the evolution of the Avengers for as long as I've been reading comics. I think people just have to accept the Avengers for what they actually are instead of what they perceived they were.

    People act like Bendis made the Avengers a-list only because of Spidey and Logan, but dude also brought B-Z listers like Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, Echo, Ares, Iron Fist and Noh-Varr onboard. And people act like the Justice League is a-list only when their ranks have been positively replete with z-listers over the years.

    The Avengers and the Justice League are counterparts because they're both the most prominent teams that have no membership requirements besides being a hero. That's it. That's what they are. Putting more A-listers on those teams does not change them.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    I personally think Waid/Wieringo and Hickman did make Fantastic Four at the center of all things Marvel. Hickman's run on FF is for me the best since Lee/Kirby and Byrne. And when Hickman wrote New Avengers/Avengers he made the latter into props for what is essentially a continuation of his Fantastic Four run by other means.

    But I definitely think the X-Men is the greatest superhero team there is. Not just Marvel but all of comics.

    X-Men > Justice League, Teen Titans, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Defenders, JSA, JLI, Suicide Squad.

    As far as Marvel proper goes, it's

    X-Men > Fantastic Four > Avengers

    and it looks like Hickman is going to be the first writer to do defining runs on all three of them.

  6. #21
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Odd way to spell the Metal Men.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    I think the X-Men's success is for a number of reasons:
    • They represent the underdog. The X-Men represent being the outcasts of society, something that many people (especially in geek culture) could probably relate to on some level. That makes it easier to root for than heroes who are beloved in-universe like the Avengers, almost by default. It's the same reason why it's easier to get into Spider-Man than it is Iron Man.
    • They are diverse, yet organically so. You know how today Marvel once had an initiative for making minority legacy heroes? It fell flat because it felt so forced. With the X-Men, all characters are from different walks of life, but it never felt like they were forcing it out of "tokenism", it was just part of the story. Everyone was a character in their own right, and we could bond to them over that.
    • They have excellent, well-plotted stories. X-Men stories can be a number of things from dark, mature, fun, scary, epic, political, or dramatic. They've done everything from sci-fi, fantasy, horror, cosmic, adventure, and general superheroics.
    • They tackle discrimination like racism, homophobia, ableism etc. in a way that's still fun. The point of X-Men was to handle these social issues in a way that doesn't have the actual baggage of doing the real thing. Making an entire comic series about handling racism might be a little too much, but doing it relation to superpowers makes the point clear and presented in a way that's still fun to read. There's a place for handling the real thing, yes, but not in a comic series meant to be fun.
    • They have so many characters. There's a reason it's been called the "X-Universe", and it's because that corner is so massive. The MCU not having access to it cut them from at least 25% of the world, I bet. It's actually pretty incredible how many characters you can find and like here, and how many of them have their fans.
    • They are still fun. You can still have as much fun reading any X-Men book as you would any other book, because while they handled mutant discrimination, they've also made sure to keep the superhero aspect in check. This is something Fox forgot to do, and in turn made the brand go stale.

    That's why so many took issue with Marvel shoving them to the side, and why the same fans were so eager for the Fox buyout to become a thing (and subsequently celebrated it when it became official). Just look at how they have such a dedicated fanbase, it really is something to behold. There were so many people who hopped on to Hickman's X-Men run and the Dawn of X relaunch the moment it took off. "X-Men, and it's good again? Sign me up!".

    This despite the many, many years of being shoved to the side, the bad stories, the bad movies, Marvel not promoting them at all, and Fox holding the keys until they were bought. While you could argue that all of this made the X-Men fanbase hungrier for the X-Men to be good again, even then, I feel like only Spider-Man has this kind of staying power.

  8. #23
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Yeah, as much as I respect how the Fantastic Four was Marvel's first modern superhero comic, I've never really that been particularly interested in it aside from the mid-80s comics with She-Hulk in them.
    What, no love for Hickman's run? For shame! He brought them back into prominence IMO....but then Fraction dragged them back down again.

  9. #24
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I sure hope the line-up of Earth's Mightiest Heroes stops being Earth's mightiest heroes.

  10. #25
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I sure hope the line-up of Earth's Mightiest Heroes stops being Earth's mightiest heroes.
    I think you need to acknowledge the difference between in-universe and out-of-universe. It's important to make the distinction between the two. In-universe, Avengers were Earth's Mightiest Heroes and the X-Men were the outcasts. Out-of-universe, the Avengers were a dumping ground for B-listers and below, while the X-Men routinely had more sales, spin-offs, minis, and acclaimed storylines in the same period.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    ...
    Ed Piskor said it best, "I don't wanna live in a world where the Avengers are the center and not the X-Men, why join the navy when you can be a pirate?"

    The other problem with The Avengers is that within 616, they have never lived up to its mantle of "Earth's Mightiest Heroes":
    --When Galactus first reared its head, it was the FF who defeated him not the Avengers.
    -- When Thanos assembled the Infinity Gauntlet, it was Adam Warlock who defeated and outwitted him while the Avengers were there as canon fodder.
    --When the Beyonders arrived with their incursions it was God Emperor Doom who saved the Multiverse and defeated them and it was Reed Richards who then overthrew God Emperor Doom.
    -- Likewise it was the X-Men and Jean Phoenix Grey who saved the Universe from the Shiar when they tried to use the M'Kraan crystal to reshape the universe.
    -- More recently it was Thor and the League of Realms that beat back the threat of Malekith to conquer, destroy and rape the 9 realms.
    -- That's not getting into Doctor Strange who has saved the universe, and magic itself, numerous times without the help of the Avengers.

    Look at Avengers greatest stories and it's usually about them making a mess of things, fixing their messes or fighting each other.
    -- Their first great enemy is Ultron, created by fellow Avenger Hank Pym.
    -- The Skrulls infiltrated their team under their watch and their noses.
    -- The Civil War led by Tony Stark destroyed the Avengers and led to Norman Osborn in charge of Marvel USA as top cop of the superhero world.
    -- The Avengers didn't do enough against the Incursions and ended up fighting each other while actually smart and capable people (Doom and Strange) did the real important work.

    Face it, the Avengers suck. They are bad, they should feel bad.

  12. #27
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    I think you need to acknowledge the difference between in-universe and out-of-universe. It's important to make the distinction between the two. In-universe, Avengers were Earth's Mightiest Heroes and the X-Men were the outcasts. Out-of-universe, the Avengers were a dumping ground for B-listers and below, while the X-Men routinely had more sales, spin-offs, minis, and acclaimed storylines in the same period.
    I think you need to realize that the sales of the X-Men aren't really relevant factors in the line-up of the Avengers.

  13. #28
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    I thought you were suggesting that the Avengers should be the center for being "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". If I got it wrong, my bad.

  14. #29
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    You should probably be the center of the universe and Earth's Mightiest Heroes when you represent the entire universe and are comprised of Earth's mightiest heroes.

  15. #30
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    I think the X-Men's success is for a number of reasons:
    • They represent the underdog. The X-Men represent being the outcasts of society, something that many people (especially in geek culture) could probably relate to on some level. That makes it easier to root for than heroes who are beloved in-universe like the Avengers, almost by default. It's the same reason why it's easier to get into Spider-Man than it is Iron Man.
    • They are diverse, yet organically so. You know how today Marvel once had an initiative for making minority legacy heroes? It fell flat because it felt so forced. With the X-Men, all characters are from different walks of life, but it never felt like they were forcing it out of "tokenism", it was just part of the story. Everyone was a character in their own right, and we could bond to them over that.
    • They have excellent, well-plotted stories. X-Men stories can be a number of things from dark, mature, fun, scary, epic, political, or dramatic. They've done everything from sci-fi, fantasy, horror, cosmic, adventure, and general superheroics.
    • They tackle discrimination like racism, homophobia, ableism etc. in a way that's still fun. The point of X-Men was to handle these social issues in a way that doesn't have the actual baggage of doing the real thing. Making an entire comic series about handling racism might be a little too much, but doing it relation to superpowers makes the point clear and presented in a way that's still fun to read. There's a place for handling the real thing, yes, but not in a comic series meant to be fun.
    • They have so many characters. There's a reason it's been called the "X-Universe", and it's because that corner is so massive. Marvel not having access to it cut them from at least 25% of the world, I bet. It's actually pretty incredible how many characters you can find and like here, and how many of them have their fans.
    • They are still fun. You can still have as much fun reading any X-Men book as you would any other book, because while they handled mutant discrimination, they've also made sure to keep the superhero aspect in check. This is something Fox forgot to do, and in turn made the brand go stale.

    That's why so many took issue with Marvel shoving them to the side, and why the same fans were so eager for the Fox buyout to become a thing (and subsequently celebrated it when it became official). Just look at how they have such a dedicated fanbase, it really is something to behold. There were so many people who hopped on to Hickman's X-Men run and the Dawn of X relaunch the moment it took off. "X-Men, and it's good again? Sign me up!".

    This despite the many, many years of being shoved to the side, the bad stories, the bad movies, Marvel not promoting them at all, and Fox holding the keys until they were bought. While you could argue that all of this made the X-Men fanbase hungrier for the X-Men to be good again, even then, I feel like only Spider-Man has this kind of staying power.
    Yeah, I think a reason I've grown more distant from modern X-Men is that I get the feeling they've decreased the fun and increased the hostility towards the mutants in a way that it seems more like hopeless parody than hopeful commentary, and hopeful commentary can have a place with honesty too. I don't know, if anything, stuff like Genosha's destruction, Messiah Complex, Second Coming, and the Terrigen Bomb seem to indicate religious parallels than minority ones. It's times like that when I feel that the "ugly" in the good, the bad, and the ugly is highlighted most frequently above all else, and makes me think back to more optimistic times.


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