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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Be glad that with Marvel, at least it was a team that they did this with. It gives at least some variation.

    When DC did it in 1989, it was Batman and they shoved the Titans, Legion and the JLA in the corner.
    As DC still hasn't changed much in how Batman is the center of their universe, I expect Marvel's Avengers priority to continue for at least another ten to twenty years.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  2. #32
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    If we take this to mean that DC's equivalent to the X-Men, then the X-Men have definitely fared better than their counterparts.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Look at Avengers greatest stories and it's usually about them making a mess of things, fixing their messes or fighting each other.
    As if interesting Marvel heroes have never been flawed. :P

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Avengers were at their best in the Roger Stern era where it was a dumping ground for B-C-D listers by and large, with the exception of Cap (who was certainly an A-lister by a thin margin).
    I think during the '80s, the only characters that were required to be in the Avengers were Cap, Iron Man, Thor and Wasp. The writers were free to fill the other two slots with characters they wanted to write about during their run, providing they were available.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  5. #35
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    Yeah, the X-Men's greatest foes are all Xavier's greatest failures: Magneto, Phoenix, and Cyclops. It's a thing at Marvel that their heroes screwed up massively at some point.

    So it's hardly a night and day thing comparing Avengers screw-ups to the other teams. That said, there does seem to be at least a bit more of a theme of winners whose empires are rotting from within rather than losers being persecuted.
    Last edited by MichaelC; 09-13-2019 at 09:26 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    I think the X-Men's success is for a number of reasons:
    [LIST][*]They represent the underdog. The X-Men represent being the outcasts of society, something that many people (especially in geek culture) could probably relate to on some level. That makes it easier to root for than heroes who are beloved in-universe like the Avengers, almost by default. It's the same reason why it's easier to get into Spider-Man than it is Iron Man.
    Geeks have never been outcasts. Or if they were it wasn’t for being geeks.

    [*]They are diverse, yet organically so.
    Oh this tired old argument.

    You know how today Marvel once had an initiative for making minority legacy heroes? It fell flat because it felt so forced. With the X-Men, all characters are from different walks of life, but it never felt like they were forcing it out of "tokenism", it was just part of the story. Everyone was a character in their own right, and we could bond to them over that.
    Aside from some online ranting from fanboys, no it did not. The books were either critical successes, commercial hits or both. The continued use of Kamala Khan and Miles Morales proves this.
    [*]They have excellent, well-plotted stories. X-Men stories can be a number of things from dark, mature, fun, scary, epic, political, or dramatic. They've done everything from sci-fi, fantasy, horror, cosmic, adventure, and general superheroics.
    Virtually every Marvel hero has this. This is not unique to the X-Men.
    [*]They tackle discrimination like racism, homophobia, ableism etc. in a way that's still fun. The point of X-Men was to handle these social issues in a way that doesn't have the actual baggage of doing the real thing. Making an entire comic series about handling racism might be a little too much, but doing it relation to superpowers makes the point clear and presented in a way that's still fun to read. There's a place for handling the real thing, yes, but not in a comic series meant to be fun.
    The mutant metaphor had its place for writers who didn’t want to discuss bigotry but it has clearly run its course. It was already showing its limitations and problems when Claremont infamously had Kitty compare the mutie slur to the n word (I doubt many black people such as myself found that moment to be “fun”).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Ed Piskor said it best, "I don't wanna live in a world where the Avengers are the center and not the X-Men, why join the navy when you can be a pirate?"
    Anyone who’d say this probably has no clue what pirates are like beyond Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

    Look at Avengers greatest stories and it's usually about them making a mess of things, fixing their messes or fighting each other.
    -- Their first great enemy is Ultron, created by fellow Avenger Hank Pym.

    For which he was kicked out.
    -- The Skrulls infiltrated their team under their watch and their noses.
    A race of alien shapeshifters whose abilities make them suited for infiltration and deception pulled one over on everybody. This is what you consider an example of the Avengers not living up to their hype? At least they didn’t accidentally give people Skrull powers like Reed did.
    Also, Thor, whom you mentioned in another part of your comment is an Avenger.

    I'd also add the Avengers defeating the Kree and their defeat of Kang the Conqueror.

  8. #38
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    "Geeks have never been outcasts."

    What?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    "Geeks have never been outcasts."

    What?
    They haven't. At least not for being geeks. This has been a narrative that is often pushed by geeks and media about geeks but the truth is the correlation between being a geek and being an outcast is pretty much non-existent. In my high school, basketball players talked about Power Rangers and G.I Joe. Being a geek itself does not make you an outcast and it's this view that has resulted in so much toxicity among the geek community.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    I think during the '80s, the only characters that were required to be in the Avengers were Cap, Iron Man, Thor and Wasp. The writers were free to fill the other two slots with characters they wanted to write about during their run, providing they were available.
    Also of note in the early 80s is when there were more women on the team than men.


  11. #41
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They haven't. At least not for being geeks. This has been a narrative that is often pushed by geeks and media about geeks but the truth is the correlation between being a geek and being an outcast is pretty much non-existent. In my high school, basketball players talked about Power Rangers and G.I Joe. Being a geek itself does not make you an outcast and it's this view that has resulted in so much toxicity among the geek community.
    Good for you. Back when I was in school, I got bullied for liking Spider-Man and anime, and I know others with similarly geeky interests have gotten persecuted.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    As if interesting Marvel heroes have never been flawed. :P
    Not for a group that unironically calls itself and is treated in-universe unironically as Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Yeah, the X-Men's greatest foes are all Xavier's greatest failures: Magneto, Phoenix, and Cyclops. It's a thing at Marvel that their heroes screwed up massively at some point.
    The X-Men protect "a world that hates and fears them" and are the Uncanny X-Men, which means they have some leeway to be f--k ups and neurotic and still be on-brand. That's why they are better than the Fantastic Four who always have to fantastic, and family, and the Avengers who are supposed to be the top cheese even when they don't have a really notable feat to it.

    I mean remember when Spider-Man defeated Firelord all by himself before the Avengers showed up after he single-handedly took out an enemy that usually takes an entire team to beat up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Anyone who’d say this probably has no clue what pirates are like beyond Pirates of the Caribbean movies.
    I know that real pirates tended to have runaway slaves as crews and ex-slaves constituted 25% of all pirate crews during the Golden Age of Piracy. Likewise, pirates tended to vote for captains. And this was in a period where the British Navy participated in the slave trade and press-ganged poor Englishman to forcibly serve in the navy, essentially licensed human trafficking disguised as the "senior service".

    So yeah, the X-Men would root for the pirates over the Navy. I mean Iron Man going around drafting people for his asinine SHRA is basically glorified press-ganging.

    I'd also add the Avengers defeating the Kree
    Minor league cosmic threat, who the Fantastic Four defeat easily by themselves. And the original Skrull-Kree War IIRC was ended by Rick Jones the Avengers mascot with no powers while most of the Avengers did little of significance to affect that outcome.

    and their defeat of Kang the Conqueror.
    A dude who loses easily to the Fantastic Four.

  13. #43
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    kree = default cosmic empire = minor league

    spider-man = beating galactus herald = good writing

    kang = killed everyone in washington dc = dressed up like a pharaoh once

    everything else that's happened = didn't
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark
    That's what I have over Beelzebub now, Honoka-chan. He thinks he's a third-year school idol. I know what I am. And in this fight-- that makes me INVINCIBLE!

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    kree = default cosmic empire = minor league
    The Kree were never as interesting as the Shi'ar. The most well-developed, with the best world-building and prominently featured in great stories of all Marvel cosmic empires.

    spider-man = beating galactus herald = good writing
    See. This guy gets it.

    kang = killed everyone in washington dc = dressed up like a pharaoh once
    The former is not as good a story as the latter.

    everything else that's happened = didn't
    The thing is the best Avengers stories (the original Ultron 2-Parter, finding Cap in Ice, Wonder Man's betrayal/redemption, Under Siege, the Hank-Slaps-Janet Saga among others) don't actually feature the Avengers doing the big things. In terms of the epic saving the world/universe stuff, there isn't a single Avengers story as good as The Coming of Galactus or the Infinity Gauntlet.

    Or take Emperor Doom where Doom takes over the World and the Avengers try and fight him, and it still ends up being Namor and Doom being bored that reverses that rather than anything they do.

    Hank Pym's biggest failure is Ultron, his biggest success is defeating a B-Team of the Masters of Evil himself. That's kind of symbolic of the Avengers as a whole. The Avengers are at their best when everything focuses on the interpersonal stuff and less so when they are super-police.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not for a group that unironically calls itself and is treated in-universe unironically as Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
    Given how screwed Marvel Earth tends to be at times, the Avengers having issues is to be expected. And I wouldn’t even put them as the most dysfunctional hero team around when the Fantastic Four and X-Men exist.

    I mean remember when Spider-Man defeated Firelord all by himself before the Avengers showed up after he single-handedly took out an enemy that usually takes an entire team to beat up.
    Popularity power. Nothing to do with anything that makes any sense or is even good storytelling. It’s as dumb as Deathstroke beating the entire Justice League by himself.


    I know that real pirates tended to have runaway slaves as crews and ex-slaves constituted 25% of all pirate crews during the Golden Age of Piracy. Likewise, pirates tended to vote for captains. And this was in a period where the British Navy participated in the slave trade and press-ganged poor Englishman to forcibly serve in the navy, essentially licensed human trafficking disguised as the "senior service".
    I’m sure this was of great comfort to the people whom they robbed, murdered and/or raped.

    So yeah, the X-Men would root for the pirates over the Navy. I mean Iron Man going around drafting people for his asinine SHRA is basically glorified press-ganging.
    Please. As if the X-Men’s history of using child soldiers (something the Avengers actually avoided for most of their history) makes them any better.


    Minor league cosmic threat, who the Fantastic Four defeat easily by themselves.
    Is Galactus a minor league threat now? The FF have beaten him by themselves too.




    A dude who loses easily to the Fantastic Four.
    See above.

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