I hope the Avengers will stop being promoted as "Marvel's Justice League"

[Agent Z]

The Kree were never as interesting as the Shi'ar.

This is not about which alien empire you think is more interesting. Please keep the goal posts where they are.

The thing is the best Avengers stories (the original Ultron 2-Parter, finding Cap in Ice, Wonder Man's betrayal/redemption, Under Siege, the Hank-Slaps-Janet Saga among others) don't actually feature the Avengers doing the big things. In terms of the epic saving the world/universe stuff, there isn't a single Avengers story as good as The Coming of Galactus or the Infinity Gauntlet.

Hank Pym's biggest failure is Ultron, his biggest success is defeating a B-Team of the Masters of Evil himself. That's kind of symbolic of the Avengers as a whole. The Avengers are at their best when everything focuses on the interpersonal stuff and less so when they are super-police.

Again, this isn’t about what you think are good Avengers stories.

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[Crimz]

People seem to forget that the Fantastic Four are powerful....

And a lot of opinions positioned as facts here. There is no such thing as the "best" team, each has their fans.

[Force de Phenix]

You're complaining that Marvel started to expand and give time to more of their characters. The X-Men had "Avenger vs. X-Men", "Civil War", "Death of X", "IVX", and "RessureXion". The only event they weren't really a part of was "Secret Wars" because it was more of a Fantastic Four story. However, I think they should have been a part of more products I could buy like mugs and t-shirts.

In media, they were missed to bring a balance to everything, but what you're saying is that there shouldn't be a balance and that the Avengers and "less important" heroes should be pushed a side. It's gonna take DC years to expand their universe beyond Batman and Superman, and over here someone is complaining of a status quo that diminished characters that people are fans of and are finally seeing light.

[Agent Z]

People seem to forget that the Fantastic Four are powerful....

I don't think that is in dispute in this thread.

And a lot of opinions positioned as facts here. There is no such thing as the "best" team, each has their fans.

The "best" isn't about most popular team in this context but about which team is the most effective team in universe.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You're complaining that Marvel started to expand and give time to more of their characters. The X-Men had "Avenger vs. X-Men", "Civil War", "Death of X", "IVX", and "RessureXion". The only event they weren't really a part of was "Secret Wars" because it was more of a Fantastic Four story. However, I think they should have been a part of more products I could buy like mugs and t-shirts.

In media, they were missed to bring a balance to everything, but what you're saying is that there shouldn't be a balance and that the Avengers and "less important" heroes should be pushed a side. It's gonna take DC years to expand their universe beyond Batman and Superman, and over here someone is complaining of a status quo that diminished characters that people are fans of and are finally seeing light.

Promoting the Guardians and characters like Black Panther, and to a certain extent, even the Inhumans, is a very good thing. But there's that whole additive/subtractive thing. You can promote characters into the spotlight without undermining the characters who are already there. Make the Spotlight arc wider you know.

The rise of the Avengers and Inhumans came at the expense of the X-Men. And in the case of the Avengers it came on the back of what is after all a bad story or rather a poorly executed one like CIVIL WAR. Likewise, it didn't lead to better Inhumans stories either.

[your_name_here]

The Fantastic Fours return was one of the highest selling issues of the year last year.
This year Hickman is starting what is sure to be another defining run on X-Men.
Secret Wars, arguably the biggest event of the past decade, wasn’t even about The Avengers and was an FF story.

[gurkle]

The Fantastic Fours return was one of the highest selling issues of the year last year.
This year Hickman is starting what is sure to be another defining run on X-Men.
Secret Wars, arguably the biggest event of the past decade, wasn’t even about The Avengers and was an FF story.

That’s because of Hickman’s lack of interest in the Avengers, not that the FF are objectively better.

[Force de Phenix]

The Fantastic Fours return was one of the highest selling issues of the year last year.
This year Hickman is starting what is sure to be another defining run on X-Men.
Secret Wars, arguably the biggest event of the past decade, wasn’t even about The Avengers and was an FF story.

It was a great FF story. I think Hickman's work on the Avengers, inhumans and FF created the well deserved hype for his work with the X-Men.

Promoting the Guardians and characters like Black Panther, and to a certain extent, even the Inhumans, is a very good thing. But there's that whole additive/subtractive thing. You can promote characters into the spotlight without undermining the characters who are already there. Make the Spotlight arc wider you know.

The rise of the Avengers and Inhumans came at the expense of the X-Men. And in the case of the Avengers it came on the back of what is after all a bad story or rather a poorly executed one like CIVIL WAR. Likewise, it didn't lead to better Inhumans stories either.

I wouldn't say they came at the expense of the X-Men because they played a big roll with the Avengers and inhumans stories and a lot of people loved the revolution phase with "Cyclops was right" becoming one of the most important ideas in comicbook history. It's also an anti-Avengers motto. If some people didn't like some of the writing of the X-Men, not everything is gonna to their way in life and comics, tough. A lot of people did based on how much they sold.

The problem is the MU is too divided and should be united.

[your_name_here]

That’s because of Hickman’s lack of interest in the Avengers, not that the FF are objectively better.

I’d say he was pretty interested, considering he wrote around 80 issues of them.

[chamber-music]

It's comics.

Everything has peaks and valleys. Things go in and out of fashion.

The X-Men were mega popular and then they were a bit less popular. The Avengers were not as super popular and then they were.

These things go up and down.

[chamber-music]

I honestly think the Avengers push peaked a few years ago and is now over, with few Avengers titles and more promotion going into the X-Men (which makes sense as it’s a more popular comics franchise and a future big MCU franchise).

What bothers me is that ever since Hickman,who clearly had no interest in the Avengers and just wrote them as a generic super team, it has mostly been presented as a Justice League type of all-star team and many of the characters who are the heart of the team and it’s history - like Wasp, Wanda, Pym - have not been allowed to return to the main title. But in terms of dominating the line I think it really doesn’t any more.

I know I'm in the minority but I liked the Avengers best when they were a superhero club and joining them actually meant something.
They used to make superheroes honorary or reserve avengers and had an actual charter for how you behave. Even founders like Pym and Stark got close to be kicked out of the Avengers at times because of their behavior.

[Holt]

True, the problem may no longer exist. But we shouldn't forget that for as awesome as things were, there was the other end of the coin. I'm as relieved as anyone that X-Men/FF are coming to the MCU, and they're being treated properly in all media including the comics, but don't you think it's a little sad that it happened to begin with? How they treated two very important Marvel properties that were essential to their success all because they were petty over film rights?

This of course led to the main problem with how they were pushing the Avengers as their Justice League: The only team that matters. This doesn't work by very nature of how Marvel works. Marvel has so many super teams, whereas DC's are relatively few. It's just sad when Marvel has so much to offer, but they only allow you to see a certain amount because they want to keep the focus on the Avengers (ie the big team they had the film rights to).

It sounds like you're confusing two separate things. As you yourself noted, the X-Men being downplayed was an issue of Marvel being petty over not having their film rights, not pushing the Avengers as an A-list property.

[Frontier]

I know I'm in the minority but I liked the Avengers best when they were a superhero club and joining them actually meant something.
They used to make superheroes honorary or reserve avengers and had an actual charter for how you behave. Even founders like Pym and Stark got close to be kicked out of the Avengers at times because of their behavior.

I miss this and the Mansion.

[Hybrid]

It sounds like you're confusing two separate things. As you yourself noted, the X-Men being downplayed was an issue of Marvel being petty over not having their film rights, not pushing the Avengers as an A-list property.

That happened at the same time. There’s a correlation.