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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Clearly as a white man living in England, I can only guess at what prejudice feels like. I don't expect my voice to carry nearly as much weight as people who've experienced those issues.

    When you say things like "I can't say I'm particularly interested in how the people who have historically been responsible for excluding various minority groups define what is "acceptable" use of "politically correctness"." then you're effectively saying you're cutting people out of the conversation. I think that's dangerous.
    Plenty white people in britain sat in prisons because of their accent or were slandered in press as a favour to the government for their political beliefs in the most secretive highly monitored country in western world.

    Meanwhile britain had to intervene to stop black american repatriates in liberia invading other peoples lands.

    Many stories.... many sides

  2. #212
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    White people aren't being cut out of the conversation on race though, indeed they have a disproportionately loud voice in the discussion as they do with most subjects. However, many of their arguments are easy to dismiss out of hand since they are quite self-evidently not made in good faith. For example, while certain fans are always decrying diverse casting for supposedly disrespecting the original work, those same fans rarely speak up when white actors are cast as characters that were originally from other backgrounds.
    That test (“are people consistent and fair in their arguments”) is a powerful test of a person’s good will and honesty in debate.

    It is one that I think very few people pass..we mostly bias out arguments to support the causes dear to our hearts. (I know I do!)

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    From memory, the last version of the comics code I read had a near identical definition to that quoted by OP as to how different groups were to be portrayed in comics - so that by the end the code was in part an "sjw" manifesto.
    The 1954 Comics Code also had rules such as "Ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible.", yeah.

  4. #214
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    Plenty white people in britain sat in prisons because of their accent or were slandered in press as a favour to the government for their political beliefs in the most secretive highly monitored country in western world.

    Meanwhile britain had to intervene to stop black american repatriates in liberia invading other peoples lands.

    Many stories.... many sides
    Fair point - but I personally haven't experienced it.

  5. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    If you believe in your story just do it. There's going to be people who like it or hate it and some who juts don't get it. But stand by your story, don't retreat into "Oh, I can't do something cuz PC."
    That would be a nice thought that i could just do my story but here is the thing is it worth the hassle that i'm going to get, i'm a nice guy i dont want to annoy any of my friends some of whom are LGBT, they may be annoyed and i dont want that
    If its a choice between keeping friends and telling a story i know which one i pick every time its my friends

    If we're taking about Marvel/DC superhero very little is "organic". Tons of beloved characters exist because of editorial mandates.
    True however does it make sense, for me personally having a nine and six year old as the smartest people in the world doesnt make sense

    But Falcon being forced into the Avengers didn't take away from the story, it was the story. The writer wanted to make point about Affirmative Action ( he just wasn't allowed to finish it).
    But thats the thing why did he want to make that point if it was iffy for the time and he knew he might not get to finish it why start. To me it's just silly unless you are going to finish.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    None of that means Peter "needs" a man in the chair.
    So you agree that Peter doesnt need a man in the chair ok i agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    It wasn't all you got. Those were two words cherry-picked out of a longer answer.
    Sorry this is a recurring answer to question anything about minorities, like i said i want to understand how in my mind do it right and i'm happy to have that dialogue however when i ask the question
    Why was William Clayton gay Why not
    Why is Moon Girl the smartest person on the planet Why not
    Asking why not is not helping, it doesnt enagage the dialogue it stops it as in there is no reason why you cant do it which is true but i want to know the reason why you do it

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Specifically, I'm not aware of anyone complaining about a gay character turning out to be bisexual.
    Emily from pretty little liars was bi in the source material and gay in the show because of the implications because in the books she settled down with a guy.
    I know one bisexual man who told me he always thought he would settle down with a guy, he is married to a woman with a kid another is dating a guy and prefers guys.
    I know a woman i work with in a writing group is gay/bi dont know which because to me it doesnt matter because she helps make the group fun and enjoys it how do i know she is engaged to a woman.
    Havent asked and i dont intend to.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I've seen lots of people complaining about straight characters turning gay.
    My issue isnt that the character is gay however i have to admit and this is how i feel it could be wrong however people say that turning a character gay doesnt take anything away from me
    However i feel that it does; it takes my creative freedom and i feel that once a character wither its comics, tv-shows, films or books says or even implys that they are gay then no matter what they have to be gay any talk of them being anything else
    bi or straight nope they are gay, i had a disagreement regarding batwoman and saying her story could be changed to her being bi the reply i got was why she is gay, we are talking about fictional characters However all these same fans have no problem writing stories where Steve Rogers is married to Tony Stark who is raising Peter who is dating Deadpool.
    You say Steve isnt gay your homophibic you have Batwomnan dating Dick Grayson you are homophibic even if you say its a AU/AR and warn them you are still homophibic

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Turning a gay character straight would be a bigger jump and you may get complaints if you tried that
    I can understand why however for me the important rule is that why i may and thats the important word may do it 1. off the top of my head it would be very few characters 2. the LGBT communtiy would exisit, i'm not a guy who wants to hid the gays however they may not get a lot of focus but they would exist and its important for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    but one is a move that increases minority representation and the other reduces it. These are not the same thing.
    For me its a numbers thing if i'm writing a story i want to show that its only a small percentage of the city/country

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Choosing to give Peter a best friend is nothing to do with political correctness. The race they then gave that friend might be. These are two different decisions.
    Sorry i may have forget but when did i say it was - the only thing i can think of is if the reason Peter has a friend is becasue they wanted him to be Asian

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Anyone with a brain? How could dumbing Peter down be anything to do with political correctness - unless you're really going to stretch it as far as to say they didn't want to allow a non-minority to be too clever - but they they blew that by having Tony Stark in the first film.
    Yeah however remember according to word of god Tony Stark isnt the smartest person in the room plus in Homecoming Peter didnt do any of the coding it was all Ned who is guess what Asian

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    The kind who constantly mocks someone and works the crowds up against them. The kind that might cyber-bully someone. you don't need to be physically imposing to be a bully.
    Yeah and how successfully was he - he wasnt i'm sorry but can we agree to disagree on this, i know it is cliche but for me Flash has to be a Jerk Jock i think its a important part of his character

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I've no idea what you're trying to say here.
    To me Flash development hinges on Peter being scared of him, Flash making Peter's life a living hell only to realise how bad he was and for him to grow out of it
    With MCU Flash i dont think that can happen because well he is a afterthought to me anyway. But i would prefer if we could agree to disagree i don't think there can be a winner in this.
    Truth is the best policy

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    To me Flash development hinges on Peter being scared of him, Flash making Peter's life a living hell only to realise how bad he was and for him to grow out of it
    With MCU Flash i dont think that can happen because well he is a afterthought to me anyway. But i would prefer if we could agree to disagree i don't think there can be a winner in this.
    You clearly don't get Flash Thompson then. He changes because he joins the military, realises he was a POS in general and then loses his legs. At one point he even defends his bullying to Peter

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    That would be a nice thought that i could just do my story but here is the thing is it worth the hassle that i'm going to get, i'm a nice guy i dont want to annoy any of my friends some of whom are LGBT, they may be annoyed and i dont want that
    If its a choice between keeping friends and telling a story i know which one i pick every time its my friends
    Okay, but then I'm not seeing what the conflict is?


    True however does it make sense, for me personally having a nine and six year old as the smartest people in the world doesnt make sense
    It makes as much sense as a scientist inviting his fiancée and her teenage brother on his experimental rocket to race to the moon in the middle of the night. But seriously, the "kid genius" trope has been around for years, even Alan Moore has done a version of it. You might as well complain about Batman street fighting in a giant cape makes no sense.


    But thats the thing why did he want to make that point if it was iffy for the time and he knew he might not get to finish it why start. To me it's just silly unless you are going to finish.
    I'm sure he didn't know he wouldn't get to finish it. Things were different at Marvel back then and decisions were month to month. It's not like now where the writers and editors have summits and plan out all stories for the next year.

  8. #218
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    So you agree that Peter doesnt need a man in the chair ok i agree.
    Where we differ seems to be that you think the one in the films does need one.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Sorry this is a recurring answer to question anything about minorities, like i said i want to understand how in my mind do it right and i'm happy to have that dialogue however when i ask the question
    Why was William Clayton gay Why not
    Why is Moon Girl the smartest person on the planet Why not
    Asking why not is not helping, it doesnt enagage the dialogue it stops it as in there is no reason why you cant do it which is true but i want to know the reason why you do it
    I don't feel we as the readers have any right to understand the storytelling choices by creators. They do what they feel will work. We can speculate, but we won't know.

    I think "why not" sums that answer up well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    My issue isnt that the character is gay however i have to admit and this is how i feel it could be wrong however people say that turning a character gay doesnt take anything away from me
    However i feel that it does; it takes my creative freedom
    What creative freedom? Are you a creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Sorry i may have forget but when did i say it was - the only thing i can think of is if the reason Peter has a friend is becasue they wanted him to be Asian
    Well you're the one who brought it up in a conversation about political correctness and disagreed with me when I pointed out it wasn't about political correctness - both of which seems to imply that you think it is about political correctness.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Yeah however remember according to word of god Tony Stark isnt the smartest person in the room
    God? Now I'm confused

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    plus in Homecoming Peter didnt do any of the coding it was all Ned who is guess what Asian
    Peter is a scientist, not a coder.

  9. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    He changes because he joins the military, realises he was a POS in general and then loses his legs. At one point he even defends his bullying to Peter
    He is still a POS when he comes back from the military, even after losing his legs, the revelation is during his solo where he meets a guy he bullied as bad as Peter and he thinks he wasnt that bad
    When Peter rightfully says he was that was when he began to change, the stuff before was when Peter didnt push the issue which speaks more to Peter's character than Flash especially since he never apologised.
    He never said the words but Peter doesnt hold a grudge. One of the reasons he was a POS was because without his spider strength peter couldnt beat him in a fight which obviously he couldnt use so Flash was a scary person.
    MCU Flash just isnt the same, he is a afterthought and i wouldnt be surprised or care if he isnt used in spidey 3

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Okay, but then I'm not seeing what the conflict is?
    The conflict is that my LGBT friends dont need to ask, matter of fact the LGBT/FanGirls don't ask but because i'm a nice guy i do
    Its the principle that to me curtails my creavite freedom, i shouldnt do a William/Ruby story because guranteed just like the sun rises and sets someone will tell me that William is gay
    Steve is straight but that doesnt stop Stucky or Stony and equality is the name of the game from what i have heard yet to me it doesnt seem like it or a extreme vocal portion of the LGBT fans want their cake and eat it too.
    Hope this makes sense


    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    It makes as much sense as a scientist inviting his fiancée and her teenage brother on his experimental rocket to race to the moon in the middle of the night.
    Depending on the version was pilot not Johnnys job or have i got mixed up in something else

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    But seriously, the "kid genius" trope has been around for years, even Alan Moore has done a version of it.
    Sorry to me there is a difference between beiung a kid genuis and basically being the smartest person on the planet

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    You might as well complain about Batman street fighting in a giant cape makes no sense.
    Don't think i'm not tempted however its an iconic look.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I don't feel we as the readers have any right to understand the storytelling choices by creators.
    If it affects our enjoyment of the product then i'm sorry but i feel an understanding of why they made those choices determines if it ist ***** or just not my cup of tea.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    They do what they feel will work.
    They are alos influnced by Publisher/Studio/Network who are thinking of dollar signs and not what makes sense creatively

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    We can speculate, but we won't know.

    I think "why not" sums that answer up well enough.
    Yes well i have i'm sure made my feelings clear on this topic


    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    What creative freedom? Are you a creator?
    I am, in the way that i write fanfiction and stories but yes i would consider myself a creator


    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Well you're the one who brought it up in a conversation about political correctness and disagreed with me when I pointed out it wasn't about political correctness - both of which seems to imply that you think it is about political correctness.
    Sorry, let me try. I disagree with Peter needing a best friend however that has nothing to do with PC, the fact that he has a best friend who is Asian is PC or the reason given seems to be PC for example having Ned be a reporter at the Bungle and being Asian wouldnt be PC.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    God? Now I'm confused
    I'm bring up the fact that Word of God is Tony is dumber than Shurri who i believe to be 25-30 years his junior because my hated question WHY NOT

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Peter is a scientist, not a coder.
    In the comics he has been shown to be both, quoted himself to be a techic
    Truth is the best policy

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    The conflict is that my LGBT friends dont need to ask, matter of fact the LGBT/FanGirls don't ask but because i'm a nice guy i do
    Its the principle that to me curtails my creavite freedom, i shouldnt do a William/Ruby story because guranteed just like the sun rises and sets someone will tell me that William is gay
    Steve is straight but that doesnt stop Stucky or Stony and equality is the name of the game from what i have heard yet to me it doesnt seem like it or a extreme vocal portion of the LGBT fans want their cake and eat it too.
    Hope this makes sense
    But unless you have an editor or publisher telling you what to do with your own creations, no one is actually curtailing your creativity. The decision is still up to you. The speculation that someone somewhere might not like your characters, isn't censorship or you being under the thump of "political correctness," it's being intimated before there's even any outcry.

    Depending on the version was pilot not Johnnys job or have i got mixed up in something else
    I was referring to the original Stan and Jack version from '61. Johnny was just some teenager who liked cars and girls and Sue was just Reed's younger girlfriend.

    Sorry to me there is a difference between being a kid genuis and basically being the smartest person on the planet
    I'm just not seeing the problem. That same kid has a pet red dinosaur and lives in the same universe as space Vikings, talking ducks and racoons, wizards, and androids who feel emotions. I mean, I understand not liking or finding the character unappealing, but considering all the other outlandish things that happen in universe, is a pre-teen being the world's smartest person really beyond the pale?

  11. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    But unless you have an editor or publisher telling you what to do with your own creations, no one is actually curtailing your creativity. The decision is still up to you. The speculation that someone somewhere might not like your characters, isn't censorship or you being under the thump of "political correctness," it's being intimated before there's even any outcry.
    No its predicating that they will be an outcry and wondering if its worth it to go ahead with the story. I mean William as bi or straight 9/10 times bi means lover with the same gender which i'm not that keen on for very well know reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I was referring to the original Stan and Jack version from '61. Johnny was just some teenager who liked cars and girls and Sue was just Reed's younger girlfriend.
    Ok thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I'm just not seeing the problem. That same kid has a pet red dinosaur and lives in the same universe as space Vikings, talking ducks and racoons, wizards, and androids who feel emotions. I mean, I understand not liking or finding the character unappealing, but considering all the other outlandish things that happen in universe, is a pre-teen being the world's smartest person really beyond the pale?
    No when you put it like that not but i dont find the whole tell dont show appealing and it just puts me off the whole thing.
    Truth is the best policy

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