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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Political correctness at its heart, is not criticising people for being female/gay/black/short/fat/disabled or whatever. It's a shame that a few people in the 80s took it to the extreme of avoiding ever using words like "black" or "fat", but the intention is good, and the outcome has been broadly good since then. The world is much more tolerant than it was back then.

    It's a shame that some people feel the need to see progress as a bad thing.
    Quoted for truth.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Political correctness at its heart, is not criticising people for being female/gay/black/short/fat/disabled or whatever. It's a shame that a few people in the 80s took it to the extreme of avoiding ever using words like "black" or "fat", but the intention is good, and the outcome has been broadly good since then. The world is much more tolerant than it was back then.

    It's a shame that some people feel the need to see progress as a bad thing.
    I don't take the good intentions excuse as a real excuse. Everyone who ends up on a bad path outside of your garden variety serial killers, has good intentions. Communists had good intentions. Well, all these people starved to death, but they had good intentions. The Nazi party thought they were doing what was best for Germany. Even the Rwandan genocide, they didn't call them people, they called them cockroaches, which they intended to and nearly succeeded in exterminating. The race they thought they were doing it on behalf of, they thought they were doing a good thing for them. So, saying good intentions doesn't address the reality of how ideas get implemented and becomes a meaningless pleasantry to distract from when things go wrong.

    Those are extreme examples to illustrate the point, so let's have some real examples of political correctness going wrong then, right? There was a rap concert, in Detroit if I remember right, this was earlier this year. They decided to charge black people more than white people to attend. Wait, I messed the people targeted up. They decided to charge white people more than black people for tickets. Out of a sense of politically correct balancing of the scales culturally. Then they had a rapper drop out as he didn't think it was right they'd charge his white mom more than his black dad. That's poison and it seems to be the trend with political correctness this decade. Something screwed up happened in the past so something equally screwed up has to happen to balance it out. The DoublePlusGood style newspeak also isn't foreboding in the least.

    Keeping this centered on comics, remember when Black Panther broke Red Skulls jaw and stated how he'd been viewing race the way the Red Skull does and he was going to seek to be a better man that didn't make those insane judgements based on race? That would be seen as politically incorrect today, the authors skin color would be a talking point, color blindness would be seen as "reinforcing whiteness" or some other implication that's clearly bigoted in how it uses skin color as a defacto negative.

    It's not particularly difficult to recognize the patterns. Okay, this group of assorted people believe in political correctness, they're gonna clearly misread Black Widows arc in Avengers 2 to give it the most negative connotation imaginable. Or stop Tim Seeley from creating Blades daughter due to skin color.

    Gotta jam in some points here because this site keeps losing half my posts. Let's be fair, if there's specific actions from this decade, like getting Dwayne McDuffie a star on the Hollywood walk of Fame or fixing the screwed up situation where Marvel will pigeonhole Christopher Priest as the "black writer" let's hear it. Lets hear the specific good that's come out of this, credit where it's due. Not some vague there's good intentions, society's "better" and that's all down to us

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Whoa, you need to update your statistics. According to the last census, 17% of the population is African-American and 60% white.
    Sorry that my bad the 7% were the percentage of Americans who guess correctly what the population of Black people which i think was somewhere between 10-14% but the point i was making was 93% of USA people thought that was more or less black people living in their contry.
    To your point being white is still at this point the majority (considering 60 + 17 = 77 so basically only 23% isnt other)

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    However, as at January this year, 50% of all children in the United States under 15 is a minority. https://www.brookings.edu/research/l...-census-shows/. White people below the age of 15 are already a minority. So the MCU Spider-man movies are quite reflective of what's happening in the US now (i.e assuming the kids in the movies are actually teenagers).
    Didnt know this, its quite interesting we will have to see how long it takes and the impact of it.

    While this isn't obviously the case across the United States, it's fast becoming a reality across the country.
    Sorry i'm confused i thought the 50% split is across the country then again it could get to the point where it is like the male/female split where it depends on where you live but overall its close to a 50% split for the country.

    That being said, I actually agree that race-bending some characters isn't the way to go but in accurately the US population going forward, it might actually be necessary.


    The call for accurate representation isn't just a "sjw" thing, its fast becoming the economic reality that businesses are just waking up too.
    Good luck with that the female population has been 50/50 split for a long time can you tell me with certain that half of Marvels characters are female; yeah i didnt think so
    The problem btw is it may not be a sjw thing but when the sjw goes and corrupts the message for their reasons for good or ill then there is a problem.

    There's a reason why movies like Black Panther, Crazy Rich Asians and even Wonder Woman (to a lesser extent) cleaned out at the box office.
    I always thought that the reason they cleaned up at the box office because they were good movies and not a social call but thats just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Political correctness at its heart, is not criticising people for being female/gay/black/short/fat/disabled or whatever. It's a shame that a few people in the 80s took it to the extreme of avoiding ever using words like "black" or "fat", but the intention is good, and the outcome has been broadly good since then. The world is much more tolerant than it was back then.

    It's a shame that some people feel the need to see progress as a bad thing.
    To me progress isn't a bad thing, its when you have sjw say things like a show is better because theres a black person in it or a character who is gay. A prime example was a articule on CBR(i think) who said that Miles Morales could be a Spider-Man that represented everyone if he was outed as gay and that this was a good thing.
    One i'm white two i'm mostly straight and three i'm not 16 years old - Miles doesnt represent me however we have someone say he represents everyone so i'm not everyone then who am i. A dinosaur who is a bigot why because i'm pointing out the fact that Miles can't represent everyone and truthfully shouldnt try.
    Better example the new Charmed is better than the old one because one of the sisters is gay and a few others but it was more inclusive.
    To me introducing a character who is X and X is a minority doesnt automatically make it progress its how you use the character that makes it progress.
    Truth is the best policy

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Interesting analysis. You’ve reminded me of Avengers 1979, in which a white government agent goes to the Avengers and tells them to add a minority member to their group, something which the Falcon, a black hero, isn’t entirely comfortable with.
    Okay. I went ahead and looked it up. I don't want to throw shade on the writer, since he's written an astounding number of things and has been writing for longer than I've been alive.
    ...
    But...a white writer telling a story about a black character coming out against something that was mainly in place to help black people and was mainly opposed by white people is just a bad look from the comfort of my seat here in the future. Yes there were always minorities opposed to affirmative action, but still.

    ...oh, he also worked on Avengers 200...errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...Maybe that was just a bad couple years for him.

    I have to get out of this conversation. I feel really weird, I'm gotta regret poking my head in here.
    Last edited by JCAll; 09-16-2019 at 09:08 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    Okay. I went ahead and looked it up. I don't want to throw shade on the writer, since he's written an astounding number of things and has been writing for longer than I've been alive.
    ...
    But...a white writer telling a story about a black character coming out against something that was mainly in place to help black people and was mainly opposed by white people is just a bad look from the comfort of my seat here in the future. Yes there were always minorities opposed to affirmative action, but still.

    ...oh, he also worked on Avengers 200...errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...Maybe that was just a bad couple years for him.

    I have to get out of this conversation. I feel really weird.
    So, you're saying you'd have less of an issue with it if the writers race was different?

    Kurt Busiek did that type of story again in an Avengers issue back in 1999 or 2000. The Government agent standing in for Gyrich was a black guy this time and Ironman told them they don't pick members for skin color. Is that better or worse for you?

  6. #36
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    Yup, instant regrets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    So, you're saying you'd have less of an issue with it if the writers race was different?
    Probably not. "What if affirmative action is insulting and bad" is always a rough story to tell, and never seems to be told in depth that I'd like to see from such a complicated position.

    Kurt Busiek did that type of story again in an Avengers issue back in 1999 or 2000. The Government agent standing in for Gyrich was a black guy this time and Ironman told them they don't pick members for skin color. Is that better or worse for you?
    I dunno. Neither. I don't know that one.

  7. #37
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    My personal definition of political correctness is that it's treating others as you'd like to be treated. a fancy name for the Golden Rule, which is found in many religions
    Beverly Allen, the Bee--with honey and stinger.

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    Yup, instant regrets.

    Probably not. "What if affirmative action is insulting and bad" is always a rough story to tell, and never seems to be told in depth that I'd like to see from such a complicated position.



    I dunno. Neither. I don't know that one.
    Not trying to get you to on the defensive, your original quote made it seem like the creators ethnicity and ethnicity of particular characters made it particularly egregious. Thanks for the very forthright answer. Suits has an episode regarding affirmative action that may be what you're looking for from what you've said.

    I see negative connotations with the hiring for race idea so I'm more comfortable with that being pointed out. I think that's where the root of a lot of white guilt ridden white privilege people are coming from, that they see themselves having an unfair advantage in the job market based on skin color (how accurate that assessment may be will invariably change) and they are reacting negatively to that, reacting negatively to what would boil down to their own, less obvious affirmative action (principle remains, hire within this demographic, reasoning is the only thing that's less apparent and truthfully isn't always for one reason in the more obvious, traditionally recognized model.

    So, my question to you, if you feel like you've got an answer for this, is when does the hiring for skin color to safeguard against potential prejudice end? Or would it be more preferable, instead of working with the assumption employers are going to be default racist, to instead have proactive policies in place for when it's been proven?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    I don't take the good intentions excuse as a real excuse. Everyone who ends up on a bad path outside of your garden variety serial killers, has good intentions. Communists had good intentions. Well, all these people starved to death, but they had good intentions. The Nazi party thought they were doing what was best for Germany. Even the Rwandan genocide, they didn't call them people, they called them cockroaches, which they intended to and nearly succeeded in exterminating. The race they thought they were doing it on behalf of, they thought they were doing a good thing for them. So, saying good intentions doesn't address the reality of how ideas get implemented and becomes a meaningless pleasantry to distract from when things go wrong.

    Those are extreme examples to illustrate the point, so let's have some real examples of political correctness going wrong then, right? There was a rap concert, in Detroit if I remember right, this was earlier this year. They decided to charge black people more than white people to attend. Wait, I messed the people targeted up. They decided to charge white people more than black people for tickets. Out of a sense of politically correct balancing of the scales culturally. Then they had a rapper drop out as he didn't think it was right they'd charge his white mom more than his black dad. That's poison and it seems to be the trend with political correctness this decade. Something screwed up happened in the past so something equally screwed up has to happen to balance it out. The DoublePlusGood style newspeak also isn't foreboding in the least.

    Keeping this centered on comics, remember when Black Panther broke Red Skulls jaw and stated how he'd been viewing race the way the Red Skull does and he was going to seek to be a better man that didn't make those insane judgements based on race? That would be seen as politically incorrect today, the authors skin color would be a talking point, color blindness would be seen as "reinforcing whiteness" or some other implication that's clearly bigoted in how it uses skin color as a defacto negative.

    It's not particularly difficult to recognize the patterns. Okay, this group of assorted people believe in political correctness, they're gonna clearly misread Black Widows arc in Avengers 2 to give it the most negative connotation imaginable. Or stop Tim Seeley from creating Blades daughter due to skin color.

    Gotta jam in some points here because this site keeps losing half my posts. Let's be fair, if there's specific actions from this decade, like getting Dwayne McDuffie a star on the Hollywood walk of Fame or fixing the screwed up situation where Marvel will pigeonhole Christopher Priest as the "black writer" let's hear it. Lets hear the specific good that's come out of this, credit where it's due. Not some vague there's good intentions, society's "better" and that's all down to us
    Do you have a link to the Detroit incident, cuz that sounds kind of fishy. If I order my concert tickets online or over the phone, how would anyone even know what my race is?

    I've read that Avengers comic you're referring to and no such speech occurs.

    Seeley volunteered taking himself of of the Blade's daughter comic. Keep in mind no one forced white/jewish Brian Bendis off the Riri Williams book because of his skin color did they.

    Avnegers 2 was just simply poorly written.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    Yup, instant regrets.

    Probably not. "What if affirmative action is insulting and bad" is always a rough story to tell, and never seems to be told in depth that I'd like to see from such a complicated position.



    I dunno. Neither. I don't know that one.
    I can't go into the details now, but there was a lot more to these stories both on the page and behind the scenes...

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Do you have a link to the Detroit incident, cuz that sounds kind of fishy. If I order my concert tickets online or over the phone, how would anyone even know what my race is?

    I've read that Avengers comic you're referring to and no such speech occurs.

    Seeley volunteered taking himself of of the Blade's daughter comic. Keep in mind no one forced white/jewish Brian Bendis off the Riri Williams book because of his skin color did they.

    Avnegers 2 was just simply poorly written.
    I originally paraphrased the quote from the Avengers Red Zone arc (issue 70 of volume 3). Black Panther speaking to Red Skull:

    You underestimated too many men and women today. Counting them out because of gender or race. As much as it sickens me I've been thinking like you lately. But I'm through.

    Yeah, there was an outrage mob bashing Marvel at the time Seeley was announced for the book, of people saying it should be written by a black creator (there's an IO9 comment section filled with vitriol regarding Seeleys race disqualifing him from writing the character, just a mouse click away) and Marvel just happened to cancel the book. Complete coincidence, I'm sure.

    I found the CNN article on the rap concert with a quick google search of those keywords. Once I've read it I'll post the link.
    Last edited by Conch22; 09-16-2019 at 10:32 AM.

  12. #42
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    The responses to Avengers 2 and Black Widows story don't accurately reflect the context of the film, however badly written and are inferring things that are not there by excising words in the responses to create a different implication to what is said.

    Here's the CNN article on the rap concert, performer cited her white grandmother (in fairness to me, I heard about this some time ago) https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...VCEumy&ampcf=1

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    Okay. I went ahead and looked it up. I don't want to throw shade on the writer, since he's written an astounding number of things and has been writing for longer than I've been alive.
    ...
    But...a white writer telling a story about a black character coming out against something that was mainly in place to help black people and was mainly opposed by white people is just a bad look from the comfort of my seat here in the future. Yes there were always minorities opposed to affirmative action, but still.

    ...oh, he also worked on Avengers 200...errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...Maybe that was just a bad couple years for him.

    I have to get out of this conversation. I feel really weird, I'm gotta regret poking my head in here.
    The difference here is that Falcon wanted to feel he earned the position on the avengers. This is different from normal jobs where a black man has earned the position but still wouldn't of got it if not for affirmative action. The avengers issues in the panels shown were more of that they didn't know Falcon and thus didn't know if he was going to be able to handle the kinds of threats they go up against. Not what his skin color was. It's an important difference IMO.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    To answer the OP: imo never that's your answer.
    Political Correctness to me anyway comes across as a tick boxing exercise to seem modern so there is no really reason for it other than its more modern and edgy.
    Not to say all representations match this, Black Panther is an example which doesn't however a prime example would be the MCU Spider and the cast there.
    MCU Spider-Man is growing up in Queens New York The U.S. Census Bureau reports that the population of Queens is 50% white, 28% Hispanic, 24% Asian, 21% black, and 3% mixed race. Almost half (48%) of Queens residents are foreign born, and 56% speak a language other than English at home. Some of the largest ethnic groups are Chinese (9%), West Indian (7%), Italian (7%), Indian (5%), and Irish (5%). The fact that the cast was so diverse was not ticking boxes but getting the demographics right.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    I originally paraphrased the quote from the Avengers Red Zone arc (issue 70 of volume 3). Black Panther speaking to Red Skull:

    You underestimated too many men and women today. Counting them out because of gender or race. As much as it sickens me I've been thinking like you lately. But I'm through.

    Yeah, there was an outrage mob bashing Marvel at the time Seeley was announced for the book, of people saying it should be written by a black creator (there's an IO9 comment section filled with vitriol regarding Seeleys race disqualifing him from writing the character, just a mouse click away) and Marvel just happened to cancel the book. Complete coincidence, I'm sure.

    I found the CNN article on the rap concert with a quick google search of those keywords. Once I've read it I'll post the link.
    Hmm..I think I have a slightly different interpretation of Black Panther's speech. But even I conceded the point, I don't see how it would be considered "politically incorrect" today. What person do you think would say that it's "reinforcing whiteness?"

    There was a debate both ways over the Tim Seely thing. Tim himself said he thought about it and maybe a black woman writer could bring something to Blade's daughter that he couldn't. He quit. Marvel didn't fire him over the controversy. The project languished because Marvel wanted to do a Tim Seely project, Tim Seely left, so that was the end of the project.

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