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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Some characters race is an essential characteristic. Black Panther, Luke Cage, The Falcon, Dr. Voodoo. All of them are directly built around issues of race, Blade no so much.

    Other than Norman Osborn, I can't think of a single Spider-Man character (to keep this on that specific character) that being white has ever played a prominent role in informing the character.

    Not one.
    Stupid question. What requires Norman to be white ? Is it because he's a rich buisnessman of the old money variety ? Or does he have a particular hatred of non-whites ?

  2. #137
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Stupid question. What requires Norman to be white ? Is it because he's a rich buisnessman of the old money variety ? Or does he have a particular hatred of non-whites ?
    It's the New York old money thing. I suppose you could reboot him to be nouveau riche though, but I think that might change his relationship with Harry.

    Those finger waves he has call in to question whether or not he's got some black somewhere in his tree though.
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  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    It's the New York old money thing. I suppose you could reboot him to be nouveau riche though, but I think that might change his relationship with Harry.

    Those finger waves he has call in to question whether or not he's got some black somewhere in his tree though.
    Yeah I remember someone talking about that, also Byrne made Sandman a cousin or something because of the hair

  4. #139
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Yeah I remember someone talking about that, also Byrne made Sandman a cousin or something because of the hair
    It's been a long running joke in the black comic fan subgroup.

    In relation to this thread it would make me laugh if they cast lightskinned black people to play the Osborns and then see the arguments back and forth based solely on hair.

    Also, they should make his cousin Hydro Man, because his waves are fresh as ####.
    Last edited by Things Fall Apart; 09-20-2019 at 04:48 AM.
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  5. #140
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Make sure you clear that with your "black best friend". I'm sure he's a huge fan of you dangling him around as your shield.
    Oh, I forgot, someone I've been friends with for over 25 years, who I know quite well, and doesn't fit this monolithic mold being put forth, you're able to speak with more experience about this person you've never met. Yeah, there's no race hatred being spread here, must've all been in my head.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    Oh, I forgot, someone I've been friends with for over 25 years, who I know quite well, and doesn't fit this monolithic mold being put forth, you're able to speak with more experience about this person you've never met. Yeah, there's no race hatred being spread here, must've all been in my head.
    Sounds like you know him real well.

    Go ahead, ask him, "Hey, when people call me out, I prop you up as my "black best friend" (my literal words), to validate whatever it is I'm saying."

    "Race hatred", I don't hate anyone, I just think YOU, and you specifically, are full of ####. You're the one who is all salty because I'm not kowtowing to your nonsense.

    Now run along, you've got a "black best friend" to talk to.
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  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Sounds like you know him real well.

    Go ahead, ask him, "Hey, when people call me out, I prop you up as my "black best friend" (my literal words), to validate whatever it is I'm saying."

    "Race hatred", I don't hate anyone, I just think YOU, and you specifically, are full of ####. You're the one who is all salty because I'm not kowtowing to your nonsense.

    Now run along, you've got a "black best friend" to talk to.
    Someone I know well in my life is a good example when, again, he doesn't fit the box you're trying to put him in.
    I see you took no exception to the user I responded to in that comment using minority children needing rolemodels of the same race and cheap toys that match their skin color being a problem for some reason (or the stem example). It's almost like you don't take exception to examples of black people being "dangled around as a shield" when it's used to paint them as victims.

    I think you're "full of ####" too, so take that for what it is

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    Someone I know well in my life is a good example when, again, he doesn't fit the box you're trying to put him in.
    I see you took no exception to the user I responded to in that comment using minority children needing rolemodels of the same race and cheap toys that match their skin color being a problem for some reason (or the stem example). It's almost like you don't take exception to examples of black people being "dangled around as a shield" when it's used to paint them as victims.

    I think you're "full of ####" too, so take that for what it is
    Well, that's because you're a racist. So I get it.

    Well, maybe not. You do have one "black best friend" and all.

    You probably don't even see race, unless you need a "best friend" you can claim would cosign whatever BS you're spouting.
    Last edited by Things Fall Apart; 09-20-2019 at 07:07 AM.
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  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    ...to say nothing of the Mandrils….

    *shudder*
    Ha! Now that's a character that as written would not fly today. However, I wonder he could be re-worked as a statement on trans-racialism or something?

  11. #146
    New old guy Surf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Well, maybe not. You do have one "black best friend" and all.
    Ooooo, I can dig it. I've got some the black best fried vs. the cool ass white dude observations that we prolly never ran down here before. Shit, ain't got time today though.
    Beefing up the old home security, huh?
    You bet yer ass.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Ooooo, I can dig it. I've got some the black best fried vs. the cool ass white dude observations that we prolly never ran down here before. Shit, ain't got time today though.
    I just never understand why people don't just stand by their own thoughts and words, rather then trot out some nebulous "friend" that isn't even part of the discussion.

    If that person isn't here to speak for themselves then why would you put words in their mouth.

    Why would someone think I give a #### about what they claim their friend thinks, it's an anecdote at best, but usually just wholesale BS.

    That's taking an awful lot of liberty for the sake of an argument on a comic book forum for someone you would claim is your friend.
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  13. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    This version doesn't need one. He just has a best friend. You're really straining to spin it into something it's not.
    You may think i am but this was one of if not the only thing Ned wanted after learning Peter was Spider-Man, he wanted to be Spider-Mans overwatch don't believe me watch homecoming again plus my point is and this applys to Stark to when has Peter ever need help being spider-man.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I can't see it, but it's your prerogative to see it that way. You do seem to have picked out the "why not" from where it was sandwiched between to other sentences, so it does feel like you're looking to be offended here.
    I'm not offended, i'm angry because i want to understand the creative process so that when i do it in my stories i'm not poing PC stuff but what i believe to be true progression but when i question any change to race, sexual orientition all i get is why not
    Here is a thought why can't i write a bisexual batwoman because supposedly thats digusting or a bisexual Karolina Dean because thats digusting too but a gay Steve Rogers with bucky thats adorable why, the only reason i can think of is that gay characters can't be changed but straight ones can and its because of implications regardless of how its done it has implications
    So long as the implications are againist white, male and/or straight people then its of no concern but if it impacts a minority then nope it needs change.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    This doesn't make grammatical sense, so I'm not 100% sure what you're saying. From what I can tell though, your complaint seems to be about giving him a friend - which is nothing to do with being PC. This is a discussion about political correctness though, so other unrelated complaints aren't really a part of this discussion. I'm not totally happy with every change they made - mainly with making him Iron Man lite - but that's not really relevant in this discussion.
    Who are you to say what is and isnt revelant, i think it is very revelant, what i am saying is that Peter is not meant to have friends but Disney made a decision which was a political decison to represent all these minorities however they gave them roles to me they shouldnt have.
    Ned Leeds can be Asian without a issue however to me should not have been Peters BFF

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree, but it's not relevant.
    Says who


    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    He's still a bully. Just a different kind of bully.
    I'm sorry but what kind of bully was he, for me purposly Flash is meant to be imposing physically and the effect of that is the impact it has on peter,
    He hates Flash and would like nothing but to kick the crap out of him however a) it would out him as spidey and b)it would make him as bad as flash with this MCU one that is lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    It was a good change to a cliched character.
    I disagree i think it was a bad change

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Again, this is nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with you not liking a change they made. You don't have to like the change, but it's best to not make it about something it's not.
    Again says you, for me the journey of Flash wither he be Latino, South Asian or Black should be the same because of the impact to Peter's story impact that we have lost because i'm not scared of Flash, don't even think he is that bad because there is no conflict between them
    The issue is that Peter beats Flash - Flash is jealous - Peter has no reason to fear Flash matter of fact he has no reason to care about Flash other than being you know a human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Marvel books from the 80's to mid 90's were political correctness done rightly. In that it featured characters from a cross section of society, many of whom were written as fleshed out. They were not just there as wallpaper or to serve as representation of a certain group.
    Plus correct me if i'm wrong but they were organically introduced

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    For example in the X-Men there were four Afro centric characters Storm, Bishop, Monet and Synch. But all of them were written as fully realized, didn't come across as stereotypes either as victims and they certainly weren't written as 'noble negroes'. They were self-reliant, intelligent yet also still had faults and short comings. That to me is political correctness done right.
    I will disagree because i dont think that is PC, its just introducing a new character and doing it well for creatvie reasons. Maybe thats the answer Political Correctness is done right when you dont force it and arent trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Political correctness done wrongly is when a character is shoe-horned in a story or comes out of nowhere and is suddenly made prominent because the company says they need to be made prominent. And I am not talking about a character being made prominent because fans have fallen in love with the character and they hence boost sales. A good example of this for me is Batwoman who was forced into the Bat books because Didio thought that the books need gay representation (even though it already had a gay character in Holly whose back story was more interesting/inspiring). I can point out a litany of how many things are wrong with the character and why her inclusion doesn't make sense. And of course there is the attempt to make Wally West into a black character. And ended up making him a hoodlum. DC quickly corrected that mistake by re-introducing him as a new character.
    I know you more than likely dont care but i agree thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    I disagree political correctness as it's heart is telling people overtly or covertly telling people how to think. I dislike political correctness or SJW because it sniffles creativity, ruins art, ignores nuance and in general relies on stereotypes and cliches. And essentially ignores the way the world works/life is. It's boring and stifles creativity. Political correctness is why so much on American tv is un-watchable and un-entertaining.
    That is my stance to tell a story if a black character can be or needs to be fine do it otherwise just tell a story and sometimes I don't think that happens because people are worried about how it will seem instead of letting it stand by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Can someone explain exactly what people mean by "ticking checkboxes" and what exactly is wrong with that?
    For example its taking the Avengers and saying we need a black character on the avengers so we will add Falcon, it to me detracts from the story.
    I think Mia explained it well, the character appears because reasons or why not; this isnt saying more races shouldnt be represneted but its how you do it, if it feels as if its shoe horned then chances are its shoe horned.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I mean I used to keep a demographics list tallying up male and female racial ratios for my characters. Is this for some reason wrong?
    No it depends on why you do it , for example i do the same for some of my stories, ensuring i know how many male female characters and obviously i will add race in as well however i look at makiing sure everyone gets representated but also that i can defend it without going because i want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    To answer the op's question however I think it is good that more races are getting represented in comics. A race of people shouldn't be ignored, if people feel ignored clearly something is being done wrong.

    Any problems caused by these practices and beliefs are caused by a history of racism and lack of representation anyway.
    I could be mistake but i thought he wanted an example of political correctness done right not that minorities shouldnt get representation.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Nobody was arguing for an all white cast for Spider-Man, rather use the non-white characters that already exist more heavily than changing the white ones and ignoring the non-white ones. They could have used Glory Grant, Hobie Brown, Sha Shan Nguyen, Randy Robertson, Sajani Jaffrey, Robert Farrell, Hector Ayala and more.
    Quoted in Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Fair enough.

    But from certain quarter, there would still be complaints about the film makers ignoring the white characters in favor of the minority ones.
    Those people will be defeated when the film exceeded expectation.
    Last edited by VolcanikTiger86; 09-20-2019 at 08:19 AM.
    Truth is the best policy

  14. #149
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Ha! Now that's a character that as written would not fly today. However, I wonder he could be re-worked as a statement on trans-racialism or something?
    Mandril is one of the very few characters I honestly don't believe is salvageable. Most of the time, I'm all about the 'no bad characters', but the amount of work you'd need to make him even slightly less offensive just isn't worth it, IMO, not when there are far better characters languishing for lack of it.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    I just never understand why people don't just stand by their own thoughts and words, rather then trot out some nebulous "friend" that isn't even part of the discussion.

    If that person isn't here to speak for themselves then why would you put words in their mouth.

    Why would someone think I give a #### about what they claim their friend thinks, it's an anecdote at best, but usually just wholesale BS.

    That's taking an awful lot of liberty for the sake of an argument on a comic book forum for someone you would claim is your friend.
    You seem really pressed that I have a black friend and I used him as an example of someone who's self sufficient. Almost like you're threatened by someone like that existing.
    I'll also reiterate that the person I responded to also used things black people were going through in his example, but you agree with him so don't feel the need to take the most bad faith interpretation possible of what he said.
    I'm standing behind what I said, none of the people going through the cheap black toy epidemic seem to be here outside of possibly the person who brought it up, but you've got no problem with that example, just mine.

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