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  1. #76
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    Afaik Disney said they avoided Flash being the standard bully because....

    A. Its cliche and has been done twice before
    B. Theoretically schools should be much more on top of physical violence
    C. He's not much of an actual threat when peter csn knovk him out easily.
    4. Since Peters focus is academics it gives him a weird rival.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Ah, that was him getting flak for his writing on IGNITED, wasn't it? I recall there was something about his original essay for Marvel Comics #1000 as well.
    Yeah, but not just that. He's been a favorite target of a certain corner of fandom for a while now. They keep baiting him and he keeps responding.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    So, if a black creator is getting told by a mob of angry fans they can't write a white character because skin color, and this creator happens to quit the book and says they think a white writer might be a better fit, you won't connect those dots as to why a writer that was ready to write a book quit or take exception to those fans?
    I would and I think that just may be where we differ
    Well, that did happen to Dwayne McDuffie when he was writing JLA. Only he didn't quit, he got fired because he was talking a little too freely about how editorial was working at the time. But I think you're over simplifying my point. Of course, I can connect the dots. And I freely admit that saying a person shouldn't write a character of a different race or gender is wrong. But ultimately, whether a writer gets to do so is in other hands. As I pointed out, an angry mob said the exact same thing about Brain Michael Bendis and yet he kept writing the comic. The mob can't "tell" a writer to do anything cause they aren't writing his checks. All they can to is express themselves in the marketplace of free ideas. That's how free speech is supposed to work. How the targets of their criticism react is up the targets themselves.
    Last edited by ed2962; 09-18-2019 at 04:34 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    My point was intentions are meaningless with poor actions married to them, which seems to be a trend when it comes to PC, increasingly so. I see it as a pattern, people declare themselves the moral authority through their good intentions and something that could be a helpful suggestion becomes a trial in the court of public opinion over something insane like Halloween costumes.
    There is a pattern of zealots taking it too far, like there is for any cause. There is also a pattern of people over-reacting and claiming every minority character is done for PC/SJW reasons. True political correctness boils down to "don't be arseholes to each other" though - and that is good..

    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    This previous question hasn't been answered, so I'll restate it, positive things that have been done on people's behalf in the name of PC, examples of PC lifting people up instead of tearing them down.
    It's a cumulative effect, so specific examples of one act of political correctness making a big difference are going to be hard to come by. We do however live in a world where gay and transgender people are now far more able to be honest about their lives. That is political correctness in action.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    I'm sorry in what version of any adaption of spider-man has he ever needed a "MAN IN THE CHAIR", answer never did he positively effect Peter possibly did it also negatively impact him yes.
    Why because Ned was the one that was working on Karen while Peter whine and bitched, the guy is smart enough to create his own gadgets hence why people didnt like it and thought he was Iron Man lite.
    This version doesn't need one. He just has a best friend. You're really straining to spin it into something it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    This is the reply i also get when i question something, i find it rude and insulting answering a question with a question.
    I can't see it, but it's your prerogative to see it that way. You do seem to have picked out the "why not" from where it was sandwiched between to other sentences, so it does feel like you're looking to be offended here.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    I never said having Peter have a friend is PC, not required in my opinion but not PC notice the question was does he need a Asian Nerdy best friend but i change it does peter need a nerdy best friend i dont think so
    especially since he is meant to be a nerd who is friendless till College
    This doesn't make grammatical sense, so I'm not 100% sure what you're saying. From what I can tell though, your complaint seems to be about giving him a friend - which is nothing to do with being PC. This is a discussion about political correctness though, so other unrelated complaints aren't really a part of this discussion. I'm not totally happy with every change they made - mainly with making him Iron Man lite - but that's not really relevant in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    This is more him saying i think peter was dumb down in homecoming they recovered in Far from Home.
    I don't necessarily disagree, but it's not relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Actually it could because they don't want to show a latino pick on and bully a white kid because that would send the wrong message to the lantion crowd so they change Flash to be a academic rival
    He's still a bully. Just a different kind of bully. It was a good change to a cliched character. And as someone else pointed out, he's South Asian. In fact, it would have been more PC to keep him as a dumb jock, because the stereotype for South Asians is to have them achieving really highly at school.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    We seem to be living in a age where people look to be insulted wither Flash is a latino or not to me he still should be a jerk jock who grows to be a solider and a great guy.
    Again, this is nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with you not liking a change they made. You don't have to like the change, but it's best to not make it about something it's not.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Well, that did happen to Dwayne McDuffie when he was writing JLA. Only he didn't quit, he got fired because he was talking a little too freely about how editorial was working at the time. But I think you're over simplifying my point. Of course, I can connect the dots. And I freely admit that saying a person shouldn't write a character of a different race or gender is wrong. But ultimately, whether a writer gets to do so is in other hands. As I pointed out, an angry mob said the exact same thing about Brain Michael Bendis and yet he kept writing the comic. The mob can't "tell" a writer to do anything cause they aren't writing his checks. All they can to is express themselves in the marketplace of free ideas. That's how free speech is supposed to work. How the targets of their criticism react is up the targets themselves.
    My point was specifically "here's an example of someone being told they can't do something because of their race and social pressure being put on a company as a result, I'm against that". It seem steered on your end towards the onus of the situation falling squarely on the creator, which there can be some truth to depending on circumstances but ultimately I'm of the habit of not making excuses for people who try to deny others opportunities based on race. I became aware of the McDuffie situation about a year ago (I wasn't overly active online when it actually went down) and have decried the actions of editorial elsewhere on that matter, if I recall right the specifics were McDuffie had Vixen, John Stewart and Jason Rusch on the team if I'm remembering the lineup right, wanted to add Icon as a Superman substitute as Supes wasn't available for the book due to then current storylines, McDuffie was told that would make it a "black book" so no, disgusting behavior on editorials part and he essentially had his limit of black characters with those 3. McDuffie spoke openly about this and was canned. I can say that's wrong and not have to try to qualify it with some argument about readership ethnic breakdowns or sales or Milestone eventually crashing and getting bailed out by DC. I could make that argument and not be able to look at myself in the mirror afterwards, end of the day the behavior was wrong, point blank, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    There is a pattern of zealots taking it too far, like there is for any cause. There is also a pattern of people over-reacting and claiming every minority character is done for PC/SJW reasons. True political correctness boils down to "don't be arseholes to each other" though - and that is good..


    It's a cumulative effect, so specific examples of one act of political correctness making a big difference are going to be hard to come by. We do however live in a world where gay and transgender people are now far more able to be honest about their lives. That is political correctness in action.
    There's anti-SJW stuff that's basically a reactionary response to reactionaries of a different political stripe. I see less overreach to do things like cost people there jobs (there's another example of another person, David Pakman, being on the receiving end of disagreeing with someones warped view of championing political correctness online and that person contacting a university to try to get them to fire David from his teaching position).
    With that said, when the sexual assault allegations came out about one of the last Vertigo creators, the Anti-SJW crowd went from trust but verify to listen and believe awfully quick, so don't think I'm going yay, partisan groupthink.
    Being able to bring up many examples, though keeping it to a few to still see the forest for the trees, of people committing specific actions in the name of PC, makes this awkward and I do want to be able to compare specific positive examples. I want to be able to put an example like someone trying to get David Pakman fired from a teaching issue because he disagreed with someones opinion online regarding political correctness, alongside a hypothetical housing the homeless or removal of a sexist job policy. When something becomes about a vague influence on social issues, I've no doubt an iteration of PC contributed, not the easiest thing to gauge from cause to effect without solid, specific examples attached. So I'll leave my question open hoping to hear more good things with more specificity to them.

  7. #82
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    If you start blaming SJWs you effectively lose the argument.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    If you start blaming SJWs you effectively lose the argument.
    Because "SJW"s are infallible? Don't wanna misread this so if you're saying something else please elaborate

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    Because "SJW"s are infallible? Don't wanna misread this so if you're saying something else please elaborate
    No because their mostly strawmen or such a minority its irrelevant. People make SJWs out to be an organised thing when its a few radical people taking some ideas too far. By blaming SJWs people effectively lose credibility.
    Last edited by jetengine; 09-18-2019 at 07:31 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    No because their mostly strawmen or such a minority its irrelevant. People make SJWs out to be an organised thing when its a few radical people taking some ideas too far. By blaming SJWs people effectively lose credibility.
    I see a clear pattern and this aversion to calling it out doesn't seem to be helping but you of course are entitled to your opinion.
    I'll keep citing examples as the conversation goes. Maybe it'll seem less like a few isolated incidents 20-30 pages from now

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    I see a clear pattern and this aversion to calling it out doesn't seem to be helping but you of course are entitled to your opinion.
    I'll keep citing examples as the conversation goes. Maybe it'll seem less like a few isolated incidents 20-30 pages from now
    I mean if you want to waste your time 'finding an enemy' that consitst of maybe 50-100 people tops, most of whom end up getting needlessly Vilified by the internet because "Muh traditional societal roles" or "I want to try to help but got a bit too into it" be my guest. I'll be doing something more worthwhile like watching paint dry

  12. #87
    A Gentle Woman Mia's Avatar
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    Marvel books from the 80's to mid 90's were political correctness done rightly. In that it featured characters from a cross section of society, many of whom were written as fleshed out. They were not just there as wallpaper or to serve as representation of a certain group.

    For example in the X-Men there were four Afro centric characters Storm, Bishop, Monet and Synch. But all of them were written as fully realized, didn't come across as stereotypes either as victims and they certainly weren't written as 'noble negroes'. They were self-reliant, intelligent yet also still had faults and short comings. That to me is political correctness done right.

    Political correctness done wrongly is when a character is shoe-horned in a story or comes out of nowhere and is suddenly made prominent because the company says they need to be made prominent. And I am not talking about a character being made prominent because fans have fallen in love with the character and they hence boost sales. A good example of this for me is Batwoman who was forced into the Bat books because Didio thought that the books need gay representation (even though it already had a gay character in Holly whose back story was more interesting/inspiring). I can point out a litany of how many things are wrong with the character and why her inclusion doesn't make sense. And of course there is the attempt to make Wally West into a black character. And ended up making him a hoodlum. DC quickly corrected that mistake by re-introducing him as a new character.




    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Political correctness at its heart, is not criticism people for being female/gay/black/short/fat/disabled or whatever. It's a shame that a few people in the 80s took it to the extreme of avoiding ever using words like "black" or "fat", but the intention is good, and the outcome has been broadly good since then. The world is much more tolerant than it was back then.

    It's a shame that some people feel the need to see progress as a bad thing.
    I disagree political correctness as it's heart is telling people overtly or covertly telling people how to think. I dislike political correctness or SJW because it sniffles creativity, ruins art, ignores nuance and in general relies on stereotypes and cliches. And essentially ignores the way the world works/life is. It's boring and stifles creativity. Political correctness is why so much on American tv is un-watchable and un-entertaining.
    Last edited by Mia; 09-18-2019 at 10:15 AM.
    • “You need not be large to be great. What you need is to be open to a Power greater than yourself.”- Rabbi Sacks
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  13. #88
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    Thinking about PC in the framework of just good representation and not the dogma and faux moral superiority leading to didactic peer pressure, I'd say Quantum and Woody are a good example. Christopher Priest was tired of what he saw as a repetitive stereotype of comedy relief black guy next to stalwart white guy, so he flipped the roles. He didn't lead a campaign to make sure everyone followed suit, he just lead by example resulting in a great franchise (which I'm admittedly still behind on reading the last run of).
    The DC side of things during Rebirth to present with books from my pull such as Green Lanterns, New Superman, Mother Panic, The Silencer, The Wildstorm and Naomi, handled PC in terms of the basic idea of representation, a lot better. The social/ political issues utilized were handled typically in a more mature manner without being over utilized to the point of overwhelming other aspects of the story, the characters felt more like individuals rather than cyphers for a particular demographic, it generally seemed more competent.

    I do think it's worth noting both companies have a litany of minority characters that are underused (forgotten or left dead) that I would love to see make a resurgence with competent teams. I think being able to build a stronger foundation for what's come before shouldn't be lost in the zeal of "this minority character is new!". Yeah, so were Crimson Avenger, Cardiac, G.W. Bridge and Coldcast, once upon a time. Now they're starring in limbo and you're guy may be joining them in 3 to 5 years (anybody remember Mosaic?)

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Political correctness is why so much on American tv is un-watchable and un-entertaining.
    Lol. Its not political correctness. Its because alot of it is just shit.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    My point was specifically "here's an example of someone being told they can't do something because of their race and social pressure being put on a company as a result, I'm against that". It seem steered on your end towards the onus of the situation falling squarely on the creator, which there can be some truth to depending on circumstances but ultimately I'm of the habit of not making excuses for people who try to deny others opportunities based on race. I became aware of the McDuffie situation about a year ago (I wasn't overly active online when it actually went down) and have decried the actions of editorial elsewhere on that matter, if I recall right the specifics were McDuffie had Vixen, John Stewart and Jason Rusch on the team if I'm remembering the lineup right, wanted to add Icon as a Superman substitute as Supes wasn't available for the book due to then current storylines, McDuffie was told that would make it a "black book" so no, disgusting behavior on editorials part and he essentially had his limit of black characters with those 3. McDuffie spoke openly about this and was canned. I can say that's wrong and not have to try to qualify it with some argument about readership ethnic breakdowns or sales or Milestone eventually crashing and getting bailed out by DC. I could make that argument and not be able to look at myself in the mirror afterwards, end of the day the behavior was wrong, point blank, period.


    There's anti-SJW stuff that's basically a reactionary response to reactionaries of a different political stripe. I see less overreach to do things like cost people there jobs (there's another example of another person, David Pakman, being on the receiving end of disagreeing with someones warped view of championing political correctness online and that person contacting a university to try to get them to fire David from his teaching position).
    With that said, when the sexual assault allegations came out about one of the last Vertigo creators, the Anti-SJW crowd went from trust but verify to listen and believe awfully quick, so don't think I'm going yay, partisan groupthink.
    Being able to bring up many examples, though keeping it to a few to still see the forest for the trees, of people committing specific actions in the name of PC, makes this awkward and I do want to be able to compare specific positive examples. I want to be able to put an example like someone trying to get David Pakman fired from a teaching issue because he disagreed with someones opinion online regarding political correctness, alongside a hypothetical housing the homeless or removal of a sexist job policy. When something becomes about a vague influence on social issues, I've no doubt an iteration of PC contributed, not the easiest thing to gauge from cause to effect without solid, specific examples attached. So I'll leave my question open hoping to hear more good things with more specificity to them.
    It's important to look at each case on it's own merits. If Marvel was flooded with complaints about Tim writing Blade's daughter and Marvel fired him cuz they thought it would hurt their business or if Tim was getting threats and abuse on his social media and was driven off the title that way, that would be one thing. But that's not what happened. People were making dumb statements and some people agreed and others didn't. This wasn't a case PC going too far. Those people may have held the wrong view, but they didn't over reach. They were just wrong.

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